Is this weird - work related - is it cultural?

[cofingalthetime]

So just to start - I'm Irish.
So I work in a office in a small team. Colleagues has been off for 3 weeks. The first week she was off I asked the team leader was she ok, and she said she it was "personal". So of course I respect people's privacy and didn't want to pry and so I didn't ask anything or mention it again. I was in the office with TL and one other girl yesterday. And I just happened to say to the other girl "I hope X is ok, she has been off for a while" and the girl said did I not know, but X's brother had been murdered! I was so shocked, and upset that I didn't know. I asked her had flowers or a card not been sent -and she said no - that not even our Head knew what happened, that the TL hadn't told anyone, and this girl had heard it from a completely different friend of X's. (X is friends with people outside our dept, she's worked there for years).

I said we should organise at least a card from our team, to let her know we were thinking of her. That we should maybe send flowers... that I'd be happy to chip in if the company didn't want to pay (notoriously stingy).

Team leader came back into the office and we both said it to her and she said 'no no' we are not to organise anything like that. Why not I said? And she just said kept saying 'no no'.

THEN, Team leader said she had been in touch with X and had told her she needs to come back to the office as it's been 3 weeks - X had apparently been doing working from home, and some compassionate leave, and some annual leave. X asked to work from home for the time being (she lives a long way - we are doing 3 days in, 2 days wfh) but team leader said no, she has to come back properly. She even said to X that she will arrange for her to work in this horrible little office we have - that has no windows - and she can work in there on her own if she doesnt want to sit in the office with us???? I was gobsmacked. She said she has told X she needs to get signed off by a doctor or come back asap. Fair enough I know - even though managers are allowed to "use discretion" when it comes to working from home and personal circumstances - this manager likes to follow the rules to the letter. More than that though - why can't we send a card? Is that an "English" thing?? I know in Ireland there's no way nothing would have been done by now. I feel so sorry for X that she has had nothing from her work colleagues at all. I mean, am I wrong or?? Feel so bad. Have bought a card and will send it myself if team leader won't let us send a group one.

Yeah the very idea that in Ireland someone would suffer a bereavement and their colleagues wouldn't know? Sure rip.ie is a national sport. The situation as described by the OP just wouldn't happen here. It is just a huge cultural difference. Death is a part of life here, it isn't kept a secret. I'm self employed but dh has been to 3 funerals in the last year of colleagues relatives that he had never met before to show support to the colleague. It is just how it is done.

It's not cultural @cofingalthetime , stop trying to provoke an argument. There will be more to it than you are privy to. Respect your TL to act appropriately and respect your colleagues wishes
You're judging it by what you would want

Let's face it. It's easier to go the British route than the Irish one.

It doesn't sound like the OP's finding it easier. She is clearly finding it very difficult to respect her colleague's wishes.

I agree that there are delicate privacy issues here to be managed. However, the TL isn't keeping things confidential consistently is she?Because she is discussing with you what she's been saying about her working from home plus AL plus compassionate leave versus coming back now ASAP. You shouldn't be being told this, only that X colleague will be off for at least another week or month and we are or are not planning to get someone in temporarily to cover or I am assigning her tasks to the rest of you as follows.

So I'd report that to a much more senior manager in HR actually or the boss of your company isn't all the big, by-passing successive tiers of supervisory and low management, as it's a really sensitive issue so you want to involve as few people as possible. Surely it should be at the very highest level that her working or leave arrangements are decided over the next weeks and months, not by this TL in your office? And you could also broach the subject with HR about personal card from a few of you versus from the team or not at all by admitting that friends in other departments have been told as friends and not your TL divulging wasn't meant to.

Btw in these circumstances I have no doubt that the person's GP will sign her off on whatever basis for as long as she needs.

@2bazookas
It would be seen as very strange and a sign of a problem in Ireland to wish to keep a bereavement private, to not want to talk about it or to talk about how the family is coping.

Yes, you might put a brave face on it, but the total stiff upper lip is a very puzzling and alien cultural element that Irish people notice in the UK. The kindness of people you don't know very well is one of the most uplifting aspects of death in Ireland. It buoys you along.

It's difficult to tell OP because you don't have the full picture.

With bereavements I'd expect work to arrange a card and flowers.... I'd say that's pretty normal in England. But this is a violent crime, a murder and the police will be involved. Your colleague may well have told management she doesn't want this shared at work and therefore they're acting completely reasonably but I'd still expect the manager to send flowers and a card on behalf of the company. If they haven't done that, then that does seem shit but it sounds like you don't know either way.

Your team leader is being a dick about having a separate office to sit in when she comes back and not shutting down the office gossip and letting you all know that flowers have been sent. They are right though that 3 weeks have been given and your colleague now needs to be signed off by the doctor if they're not returning to work.....but they absolutely shouldn't be pressuring her to return before she's ready.

Your reaction to people who aren't telling you what you want to hear suggests you are not a particularly caring or tolerant person. In particular, the charge that you are more of a nosy busy-body than a concerned colleague seems to be hitting a raw nerve.

Needing to know the details of another person's misfortune especially when that person could have told you herself, but chose not to does not make you a good or compassionate person. It is an unwanted intrusion.

Obviously, I can only go on the information you have provided, but it seems clear that your colleague doesn't want to confide in you. She knows where she can find you. She has obviously been in touch with others in your workplace, but not you. That obviously irks you, but that's tough.

You need to take the hint.

You are obviously NOT a person in whom your colleague wants to confide. Respect that and mind your own business.

OP, don't let the onslaught of private Brits tell you that there is anything wrong wtih your culture.

That's not really what's happening here though is it? The Brits aren't saying there's anything wrong with Irish people dealing with their bereavement however they want. Whereas on this thread the Brits have been called 'cold', 'awful' and 'strange'.

The OP isn't bring criticised for her feelings about death and bereavement. She's being criticised for wanting to impose that on other people who have a different culture.

It’s not a cultural thing. I’ve worked with many people who have had bereavements and it’s been really common to send flowers and a card. The cultural differences are that whereas in Ireland (rural Ireland at least) it would be really common for lots of colleagues to attend the funeral, that’s not the case in England. But card or flowers is common.

BUT PP are right - it’s entirely possible your colleagues doesn’t want others to know and that’s why your TL doesn’t want anything organised. Respecting the wishes of someone who is grieving isn’t cold or heartless, or cultural - it’s basic decency.

The way you do things in Ireland I think is a lot healthier and more compassionate than it is here.

Fwiw, I'm only getting concern for a colleague/friend from your posts, not the nosiness that some posters have suggested.

If your colleague wanted you to know, you would, but I can't get over that you seem to have no appreciation that her brother was murdered. He didn't just die. Someone you love being murdered is an apocalypse. It is completely life altering. Perhaps some flowers and a daft card isn't what she needs right now. If you are hell bent that she must get a card, send it yourself.

Exactly this

Surely this would be in the local press?

Many murders are never reported in the media, or just one

Why is it relevant whether it's in the press or not? You can be aware people are going to find out about something and still not want to discuss it with colleagues or have them openly talking about it.

Now that is a cultural difference. Like others, I prefer the Irish approach. It makes death and grieving much more of a community thing. Most people I know who have lost family in Ireland have found some comfort in their family member having a large funeral. There is a sense of a whole community paying their respects, even if they haven’t met the deceased person. Funerals are as much (or more) about those left behind as the deceased themselves.

But I think OP is wrong to think it’s a cultural thing not to send a card or flowers - in my experience in England that is really common (unless the colleague wants more privacy).

@KettrickenSmiled

I think your 'fend off commiserations' / 'gawping' / 'refuge of normality' post is a prime example of the difference between the Irish and British attitudes to death.

The attempt to behave as if nothing has happened would not be seen as healthy in Ireland. The reading of kind gestures as irritating intrusion is quite strange to Irish sensibility.

I'm in the US, so most likely neither as 'reticent' about death as in the UK nor as 'open' as in Ireland. Normally, if we'd called in because of a death or serious illness/accident the decent members of management would ask us if and/or what we wanted them to share with our individual 'unit'. If we said 'nothing' they were bound to keep quiet about it.

The TL probably didn't say anything to the team so as not to break confidentiality. And most likely didn't want a card sent due to worry that the co-worker would think that she had broken it. Where I worked our management was 100% forbidden from saying anything other than 'X will not be in today'. They weren't allowed to say we were off sick, our car had broken down, death in the family, nada. All for confidentiality reasons.

The OP states this girl is a 'friend'. IMHO If she were other than a 'work friend' she would have called the OP and let her know. This poor coworkers privacy should be respected. If someone in the office sees a public notice, newspaper article, obituary, or the like then it would be appropriate to send a card. As it is, it appears that what knowledge there is has been repeated or 'gleaned' 2nd or 3rd hand

There is definitely a difference culturally between English and Irish attitudes to death. I remember asking my nana why she went to so many funerals of people she didn’t know personally (she’s Irish) and she said that’s how she grew up, and it’s a sign of respect for the dead person and their family.
However, where I work we are a close team, so I know if my sibling had been murdered my team would send me flowers, check in with me, make sure I was ok. It could be an office thing, it could just be the TL isn’t confident in providing support following a bereavement

Because you have to respect people’s privacy. Your ex boss was correct not to blab your loss to others- up to you if you want to tell them.

No, definitely not. I'm 50 and I've only been to 3 funerals in my life! I can't imagine why I'd go to the funeral of someone I've never met.

Because funerals are for the living not for the dead. You go in support of the people left behind.

It’s def cultural!!! You are not a busybody. In Ireland a funeral is a public affair I think and you would be cold unfeeling not to show sympathy. In England it’s a private affair. But I think the manager is being cold !!!

@SpangledShambles

The language of 'privacy' and 'blab your loss' is very revealing.

Its almost as if it's seen as necessary to protect against kindness.

This. Although I don’t think it has anything to do with nationality! It’s just decency and respect for the person’s wishes and not blathering about other people’s misery without their permission.