Is this weird - work related - is it cultural?

[cofingalthetime]

So just to start - I'm Irish.
So I work in a office in a small team. Colleagues has been off for 3 weeks. The first week she was off I asked the team leader was she ok, and she said she it was "personal". So of course I respect people's privacy and didn't want to pry and so I didn't ask anything or mention it again. I was in the office with TL and one other girl yesterday. And I just happened to say to the other girl "I hope X is ok, she has been off for a while" and the girl said did I not know, but X's brother had been murdered! I was so shocked, and upset that I didn't know. I asked her had flowers or a card not been sent -and she said no - that not even our Head knew what happened, that the TL hadn't told anyone, and this girl had heard it from a completely different friend of X's. (X is friends with people outside our dept, she's worked there for years).

I said we should organise at least a card from our team, to let her know we were thinking of her. That we should maybe send flowers... that I'd be happy to chip in if the company didn't want to pay (notoriously stingy).

Team leader came back into the office and we both said it to her and she said 'no no' we are not to organise anything like that. Why not I said? And she just said kept saying 'no no'.

THEN, Team leader said she had been in touch with X and had told her she needs to come back to the office as it's been 3 weeks - X had apparently been doing working from home, and some compassionate leave, and some annual leave. X asked to work from home for the time being (she lives a long way - we are doing 3 days in, 2 days wfh) but team leader said no, she has to come back properly. She even said to X that she will arrange for her to work in this horrible little office we have - that has no windows - and she can work in there on her own if she doesnt want to sit in the office with us???? I was gobsmacked. She said she has told X she needs to get signed off by a doctor or come back asap. Fair enough I know - even though managers are allowed to "use discretion" when it comes to working from home and personal circumstances - this manager likes to follow the rules to the letter. More than that though - why can't we send a card? Is that an "English" thing?? I know in Ireland there's no way nothing would have been done by now. I feel so sorry for X that she has had nothing from her work colleagues at all. I mean, am I wrong or?? Feel so bad. Have bought a card and will send it myself if team leader won't let us send a group one.

This is a difficult one - for a family member to be murdered is so shocking - so appalling - it may be that your teammate doesn't want people to know yet because she can't face either questions or sympathy at present. She may feel she'd be the object of prurient curiosity and just can't think about facing anyone.

However, for the TL to pressure her to return to the office (and effectively shut her up on her own where she would be isolated and lonely without even a family member to share her grief with) is horrific. I really feel that's totally inappropriate.

Even an ordinary family loss can be difficult to cope with - something like this is nightmarish. Your TL is a tw*t.

I honestly don't know what I would do in these circumstances. Like you, my instinct would be card and flowers, but if she has requested that nothing be said, it could upset her further.

Now that is a cultural difference. Like others, I prefer the Irish approach.

I don't. I have feelings, but I very much don't wear my heart on my sleeve. I wouldn't dream of going to work in Ireland, criticising my Irish colleagues' attitude to bereavement and suggesting they should all shut up about it and maintain a stiff upper lip though.

There is obviously a cultural element to this: I recognise the point about funerals. I would never dream of going to the funeral of anyone unless they were a relative or very close friend. It just isn’t normal in English culture to do that: it would be seen as mawkish, intrusive and weird and you could actually offend people by doing that.

Its obviously much more normal in Ireland for grief to be a public thing and my personal view is that this is probably healthier (although I would find it difficult).

But the fact remains that isn’t just any death it’s a murder. The parameters are completely different to the passing through natural causes of a relative.

I don’t think you need to be English and uptight to recognise that it isn’t appropriate to contact someone who has expressed a desire not to be contacted.

Ha ha - this is great!

There's another thread going on at the moment where the OP's friend having a Mexican themed party where they're asked to wear somberos and moustaches is being described as "racist" as fuck (is IS naff, I'l give you that).

On THIS thread, the "English" are basiclly being described as a whole nation as being cold as fuck and emotionally stunted and that's fine.

I fucking love Mumsnet

Hi OP...it sounds like it might be a thing related to the culture of your office. When I had a big loss, I had a conversation/handover with my boss who arranged for someone else to take over my work and she told me to take as long as I needed. HR sent a big bunch of flowers and I had numerous texts from colleagues saying how sorry they were to hear my news. Although I didn't have the energy to reply to them all, I found it really helpful to know that people cared. My colleagues actually organised a fundraiser so that a memorial bench could be made - a little act that totally blew me away.

As for your situation, your TL obviously can't discuss your colleague's private situation with you and it may be that your colleague has specifically asked for no one to be told. I think asking a couple of times if your colleague was ok is more than reasonable considering she was gone so long.
When she returns, she might tell you, she might not. Just let her lead the way. Everyone handles loss differently and she might be really private.

I think it's nice that you're concerned though.

I did get a card from work when mum died she has terminal cancer and my colleagues knew this. I was happy for people to know why I had been off. However when I had my miscarriages I didn't want people knowing as I didn't want to talk about it so they were just told I wouldn't be off x weeks on sick leave.

If your colleague didn't want you all knowing that is her choice. I agree your manager doesn't sound great pressuring her to come back to work. I too would wonder if a colleague was off work for weeks but understand if people want privacy.

I’m not sure why you think immigrants aren’t entitled to have and express views about the culture where they move to.

I'm English and I agree OP. That does seem really cold and not very nice.

I lost my Grandparents who raised me so more like my Mum and Dad and I had a card and flowers and texts from my colleagues.

I’m Irish, living in England.
When I lost my baby at full term here my work colleagues sent a wreath to her funeral, which I very much appreciated and my line manager sent me a text but I was off my face on morphine so no idea what I said.
My Irish friend who worked I. The same office as me, bless her, thought I was weird for not having a wake/drinking session “to send her off” and thought there’d be hundreds at her funeral etc.
I’m no fan of the Irish way, no matter who died or in which circumstances but it is sort of cultural and sort of personal: I prefer the English mannerisms to find extent because bereaved I want to be left alone not made roaring drunk and crying etc.
But.. I’d rather have the Irish recognition and ability to discuss the death because I think it’s better out than in (if that makes sense).

What do you actually think a card is going to mean to here. I had a card sent to me from work when my husband died…. It was signed obvs by whoever was there at the time, recognised no one’s name it was more for them than it was for me!

Hi OP. Fellow irish here. Don't try to understand it. English culture is really different about death. In my experience I found it cold, closed off and almost ashamed of death in a way, like death is some unique thing they must deal with alone. Almost taboo to discuss. Its maybe the one area of Irish culture where we have less irrational shame and unhealthy coping mechanisms. The fact burial can take anything from a week to six weeks in some cities in england too makes it really weird. The concept of ritual communal support, grief and having colleagues offer sympathies as an altruistic and empathetic act of one human to another seems completely absent from the culture. You get the snotty cut off that it is nosey to offer sympathies or want to support someone who has had a bereavement. I found the cold and closed off culture around death really weird. The rituals for grieving and for interacting with recently bereaved that give space and understanding in order to aid in the process of grief practically, emotionally and socially in england are just...absent.

I worked in england and found how colleagues who suffered bereavements were expected to carry on with no recognition from employer, colleagues etc really weird. Especially since performance in job always suffers for a time, or socially the person was 'off' and knowing they were recently bereaved would have meant being better able to make allowances and to offer practical support. On the rare occasion I did hear of a colleague suffering a bereavement, my employer and colleague group in england scoffed at the idea of sending flowers. It made me realize the difference in culture. Acknowledging we knew about their loss was seen not as being sympathetic and supportive but as intrusive or 'asking for trouble.' Head of department actually said she didn't want to send any card or condolences because if she acknowledged the bereavement then she might have to make 'allowance' ...😧

You just don't know what other people want. If your TL was any good, she'd be asking your colleague what she'd like you all to be told.

For example, I'd hate someone to know a close relative was murdered.
It's such a shock, she'll have so much to process, she may well not know the details of what happened and be dealing with gossip and speculation.

Something less shocking I'd be happy to share- death of an older relative after an illness, for example.

Something very personal- pregnancy loss- I'd hate to share. I'd want to be able to pretend it hadn't happened, and tell people as and when I wanted to.

Being the victim of an assault, the same. I'd feel so vulnerable if it was shared.

Basically your absent colleague is the only one who knows how she wants the information to be shared, and your TL doesn't seem to be asking her.

Can you think of any differences between a nationality that has enjoyed considerable global power (historically exercised often quite brutally), and a nationality whose members are often subjected to damaging stereotypes which feeds into real disadvantage and discrimination against that nationality in other countries (in the case of Mexicans, particularly in the US)?

If English people were subjected to the same disadvantages as Mexican people because of caricatures and stereotypes you might have a point. But they’re not so it’s a pretty rubbish comparison.

If, heaven forfend, my brother were murdered, then I would be fucking horrified if I found out my work colleagues were gossiping about it. I would very much want to choose who knew. Not have people salivating over the details by the water cooler. I have previously been off sick receiving treatment in my own hospital. It was 100% up to me who knew what, and both my clinicians and managers scrupulously observed my confidentiality. Unwanted invasion of privacy is not a sign of caring.

It's not 'definitely a cultural thing'.
I'm Irish so I understand how bereavements are treated in the community, big wakes, big funerals etc.
BUT, I am also a very private person, and I keep my work life and private life separate. I would not want anyone at work knowing my private business, and grief is such a private thing. I detest grief vampirism/tourism and your attempt to reach out and show sympathy runs the risk of looking nosy and interfering.
I'd be mortified, and pissed off, if my colleagues did what you're suggesting.

It’s partly a cultural thing in that Mumsnet users apparently don’t like anyone knowing anything about their lives - including siblings and parents, who are considered “extended family” 🙄

When my husband died, my company (a very large and long established retailer) sent several bunches of flowers and cards, one from the Director, one from my Head of Department, and a bunch from my team. My friends (shock, horror!) from work came over to see me, and a whole load of them came to the funeral. My Head of Department insisted I get signed off work for three months - he’d already told me to work from home three days a week when my husband was ill (pre-pandemic). I appreciated their support.

This thread is full of stereotypes. Grief is a personal thing not dictated by nationality.

Besides, a murder is VERY different to an elderly loved one passing peacefully in their sleep.
The family members may be just as grief stricken but the level of shock and trauma must be on a different scale.
Your colleague has perhaps had to deal with police on top of everything else.
Give her space.

I wouldn’t have expected my manger to tell the whole workplace I was off if my grandma has died. That’s personal and not up to the manger to spread the news. If you were that close, couldn’t you have messaged her to ask her what’s been going on. I agree that not arranging anything from work is awful. You should just send your card that you have bought yourself. I remember when I called up to tell my manger my cousin had died. This first thing he said was when will you next come in for your shift. No sorry for your loss or anything.

Don't be ridiculous. Expression of grief and handling of death is intrinisically culturally relative and can't be otherwise.

That was her choice to tell you, on her terms.

You don't be ridiculous @Arayes

At my place of work it has been varied. The person off sick due to bereavement usually shares with the manager if they are OK with the reason of absence to be shared. Of it is then we take a card. Some people prefere it to be private so then they are just "off" and share if they want. It's personal. Some want work to be the place where things are "normal" and some want colleagues to know. So I wouldn't sent a card to a colleague unless they told me about the events personally or it was shared mutually.
The grief process varies a lot and murder of a sibling and losing an elderly aunt are very different things.

Of fucking course it is. The loss isn't yours, you have no right to know. What arrogance.