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Albanian migrants question

461 replies

Notthetoothfairy · 05/11/2022 11:52

Everyone knows the U.K. is really short of staff since Brexit and that is pushing up prices for food etc. If we now (like it or not) have a huge influx of Albanian young men who actually want to work, wouldn’t we be better off letting them legally get jobs here and treating them like the Europeans who left?

Maybe I’m being too simplistic here but I’m not sure how keeping them unhappily detained for long periods in processing centres then spending something like £7m a day putting them in hotels without letting them work is helping anyone. Obviously it’s different if someone has just come over to claim benefits and has no intention of working but I get the impression that’s not the case for a lot of these young men.

If you think I’m wrong, you can explain why and still be nice about it 😁

OP posts:
MarshaBradyo · 06/11/2022 10:27

TheHateIsNotGood · 06/11/2022 10:15

My solution would be for the UK to work closely with Albania and provide substantial financial aid to improve the conditions within Albania itself.

This is a bottomless pit solution. The billions it would take to get Albania to a place where the mafia aren’t getting a stronghold would be crazy. Plus we need that £ for our own issues we face.

There has been a few million given which I don’t think is wise. Better off for Albania to do campaigns on the reality of the work gangs offer - if that is unknown as some claim.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 06/11/2022 10:31

Or plough that cash into building social housing which would benefit migrants and the public alike…

We cannot build our way out of this. The more we build and house migrants, the more will come. There has to be a sober solution.

EXSW · 06/11/2022 10:32

Anecdotal of course, but the one Albanian guy I know came here illegally in a lorry, I think he paid a lot to get here. He worked illegally at first (in hospitality), but then married a British woman and within a couple of years had a successful franchise business which has now been going for years and he has paid A LOT in tax. I do think he married for papers though, or whatever they call it.

Cornettoninja · 06/11/2022 10:35

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 06/11/2022 10:31

Or plough that cash into building social housing which would benefit migrants and the public alike…

We cannot build our way out of this. The more we build and house migrants, the more will come. There has to be a sober solution.

We will always have a responsibility to asylum seekers, the numbers aren’t particularly high at the moment. Well we will unless we’re choosing to isolate ourselves globally.

Outside of the money currently being spent on housing migrants we also have a housing crisis. It’s just one factor of the issue but it’s one with at least one solution that would benefit society as well as the immediate problem. It certainly wouldn’t be ‘dead’ money as it currently is.

TheHateIsNotGood · 06/11/2022 10:36

OK - I understand my solution is massively unpopular and I agree with most of the sentiments expressed so will not bang this drum any further except that:

The current Albanian influx is already costing us m/billions.
We already have a very daft Foreign Financial Aid system that needs revising (eg I'd rather we gave money to Albania and not China, etc).
We need to get to the source of the problems - not just the extreme economic problems in Albania but a multi-national effort to take down the Criminal Gangs.

I'll be gone now - great thread OP.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 06/11/2022 10:41

So you want to build and house everybody who decides to come here?

It's just trying to put out a fire with oil.

Cornettoninja · 06/11/2022 11:02

That’s a very tunnelled interpretation @ChardonnaysBeastlyCat.

No, I’ve clearly argued for a multi pronged approach, mostly for increased policing and tackling of the crime that actually takes place in this country. If this country was less hospitable to criminality less criminals would be attracted here.

that leaves us with genuine asylum seekers to accommodate and a country without enough housing. Both problems that require attention. We have as much land taken up by golf courses as we have built on…

There needs to be an eye on the future too. Climate is going to force immigration over the coming decades, this isn’t a tide we can blockade . All countries need to have plans and be prepared for this and given we don’t know what the UK will experience its prudent to be part of the group of solution finders rather than entering into a fruitless battle against it. Not least because we may find ourselves in need of the same acceptances.

MarshaBradyo · 06/11/2022 11:06

Aus seems to have found a way to tackle small boats issue, even with the new Labor gov not much is changing. A greater land mass, so coastline to here.

Things will change and I predict we’ll see move to the right over it. And where the shift is left border policy will stick as it has in Aus.

Other countries are seeing the shift right and immigration is often the push

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 06/11/2022 11:08

Yeah.

You still want to build up every available square inch, but you clothed it in more words.

Cornettoninja · 06/11/2022 11:13

Don’t put words in my mouth @ChardonnaysBeastlyCat. I support practicalities and reality over sharpening pitchforks. I’d like to think we’ve evolved past town mobs.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 06/11/2022 11:15

I don't put words in your mouth. I just free them from the fluff you drown them in.

Cornettoninja · 06/11/2022 11:24

Ah right. Well thanks for the attempt but your interpretation skills are shite and that’s not what I was saying at all.

your trying to boil it down to something simple you can digest and get pissy about. Crack on, but you’re part of the problem and the reason this can’t be talked about sensibly.

Cornettoninja · 06/11/2022 11:26

I believe The Sun has a reading level of 5 if words are you’re problem. Don’t be embarrassed, you can improve yourself.

woodhill · 06/11/2022 11:27

TerfTerf · 06/11/2022 09:06

From The Spectator this week:

A friend of mine works in a surgery in London where lots of asylum seekers go for treatment. The caseload is a snapshot of current trends in illegal immigration, and at present that means lots of Albanians.
Yep, that’s the migrant influx across the Channel we’ve been hearing so much about, and which the Albanian PM, Edi Rama, has been blaming on the British government: ‘It’s not about Albanians or aliens or gangsters, but it’s about failed policies on borders and on crime,’ he said this week.
Three cases give an idea of what’s going on. One patient was a nurse from Tirana, Albania’s capital, but had found it impossible on a nurse’s wage to buy somewhere to live. So she saved up her money to pay the people traffickers; the going rate to get to Britain starts around £3,000-4,000 and can go up to £10,000. Getting across Europe isn’t hard; it’s getting from France that’s the issue.
Then there was a man from northern Albania who was wounded fighting with the KLA in Kosovo and nearly blind with diabetes; his son, aged 18 or so, was with him; he has serious health conditions which can’t properly be treated at home; besides, social welfare is more generous here.
The third was a married couple with a young child from the south; the wife was a nurse. The cross-Channel journey in the dinghy was hell; there had been water up to their waists for what seemed like hours. But when the British boat – presumably the coastguard – arrived, everything changed. It was, like, she said, the promised land. The husband had a reason for wanting out of Albania; his family was involved in a blood feud. She was scared of the traffickers: terrorists, she called them. Certainly she wasn’t going to shop them; they’re here and if anyone gives them trouble, it would be tricky for their family back home.

Are these legitimate asylum seekers in the sense of having a well founded fear of persecution? I’d say not, myself. But they’re not simply economic migrants either.

Why leave Albania – parts of which are beautiful – for an unprepossessing bedsit in a dispiriting London borough? The experts I sounded out, friends and a friend of a friend, interestingly don’t focus primarily on the economy to explain the exodus – because it really is an exodus of the younger generation. Rather, it’s to do with Albania being a failed state: the absence of the rule of law, the sense that the place is being run by a corrupt coterie for its own benefit, the hopelessness about the prospects for change, the narco-economy. One recent paper put the number who’ve left the country since the advent of Edi Rama, the socialist prime minister, in 2013, at 700,000. If Rama wants to know what’s really behind the exodus of Albanians, he could do worse than look in the mirror.
Romeo Gurakuqi, a conservative MP in Albania until he was dropped by his party at the last election, used to be terrifically idealistic about politics 20 years ago. He says flatly that the way Albania is governed doesn’t square with it being a member of Nato and a candidate for EU membership: ‘The way of governance, arrogance, inequality, corruption, lack of control of the rule of law, lack of guarantee for the development of business and foreign investments in the country, have all increased the depression in society,’ he says.
Turkey’s president Erdogan is a close ally of Rama’s; he’s funding yet another mega mosque, in Albania, as part of his grand project to revive Ottomanism. But this type of investment is unusual.
For most Albanians, says Gurakuqi, times are hard: ‘Albanian society is in a deep depression, not only economic and social, but also a state of anxiety, insecurity about life, which extends to the lower and middle classes of society’.
Gurakuqi notes that many of the arrivals to the UK are from his own area, northern Albania; it’s discriminated against, he says, by a political class dominated by the south. He adds:
‘Why do they only come to the UK? I think that they are spread all over continental Europe. They move freely because Albania is part of the Schengen agreement. But they think the UK offers more opportunities.’
You could add to that other factors identified in a report by the German Konrad Adenauer Foundation in 2020. It points to the bizarre land reforms that followed the fall of the Hoxha regime in the early 1990s. The communists appropriated private property in 1945; when the regime fell, a new law – 7519 – recognised the ownership of the land by those farming it, while also recognising the land was confiscated. So, no one owns it until compensation is paid, and the compensation process takes forever. With little secure ownership, there’s no incentive to invest in agriculture; the resulting exodus is especially acute from rural villages.

According to Eurostat, the number of Albanian asylum seekers is the highest in relation to population anywhere. The population fell between the beginning of this year by 14 per cent since 1990, to just under 2.8 million. Most of that fall is attributable to emigration, legal and illegal.
Afrim Krasniqi, director of the Institute of Political Studies, observes that emigration is on two levels:
‘The first and less talked about is the migration of professionals towards technologically advanced countries such as Germany. The second is related to the emigration of poorly educated (but not necessarily poor) individuals heading mostly to Britain. Numerically, the first category is significantly larger, but it does not attract the attention of the media, as it is legal migration that’s actually liked by the countries concerned.’
Although he identifies the dearth of Western investment as a problem, he too sees a bigger issue:
‘The concept of the rule of law and functional democracy here is neither effective nor appealing; a large and growing part of the citizens do not believe in change as a process they can affect. We are not dealing with political violence, but with high level corruption that significantly limits political freedoms and average living standards. It’s not poverty that pushes people away, it’s social insecurity and a lack of faith in change.’
Another friend, a former senior public servant, blames Rama for the collapse in standards in public life. There were reports this week, for instance, about the number of flights the PM took by private jet. This friend sent me a succession of stories on the alleged misconduct of the last election, but the most telling thing was that he didn’t want to be named; he was afraid.
The mystery is that there’s so little critical scrutiny of the Albanian political class and government by Western embassies, including Britain’s. Some observers put this down to corruption. Krasniqi observes that ‘the EU but also the UK do not have an active or effective strategy in Albania; the priority is the short-term interest in stability and control, not that of functional democracy and open societies…The model of the Albanian and regional politician that is promoted by the “West” is mainly the wrong model that the citizens here do not want, that of the strong, arrogant, corrupt and authoritarian politician.’
One response to the influx of Albanians to Britain is to send them home. Fine; fair enough. Ignore Edi Rama – whose party, it should be noted, is pretty well a successor to that of the unlamented dictator, Enver Hoxha. The harder option is to confront the problems in Albania – endemic corruption, a narco-elite and a rotten political class – through diplomacy, the intelligent deployment of international aid, and a robust approach to money laundering. You could, of course, do both.

But why does it have to be the UK, try another European country for a change

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 06/11/2022 11:33

Cornettoninja · 06/11/2022 11:26

I believe The Sun has a reading level of 5 if words are you’re problem. Don’t be embarrassed, you can improve yourself.

Oh don't you just hate it when you try to be so clever and manage to make a spelling mistake in the same sentence?

Grin

Bless.

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 06/11/2022 11:54

YellowTreeHouse · 05/11/2022 11:56

No. We don’t have the infrastructure or services to support our own nevermind letting in anymore.

Oh fuck off, I've had a look at your posting history and it's evident you don't give a shit about "supporting our own".

That's just a line people like you spout because you're too scared to say what you really mean (that you don't want dirty foreigners comimg to "your" land).

Cornettoninja · 06/11/2022 12:06

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 06/11/2022 11:33

Oh don't you just hate it when you try to be so clever and manage to make a spelling mistake in the same sentence?

Grin

Bless.

See champ, you can do it!

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 06/11/2022 12:10

You can learn, too. it’s a common mistake, don’t be disheartened.

LesterBiggot · 06/11/2022 12:24

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 06/11/2022 11:54

Oh fuck off, I've had a look at your posting history and it's evident you don't give a shit about "supporting our own".

That's just a line people like you spout because you're too scared to say what you really mean (that you don't want dirty foreigners comimg to "your" land).

Talk about projection. What filthy nasty language. And what's with the 'your' country. For the existing population, it is their country. Just like the existing population of any country is. And all countries have the right to protect their boarders, particular if mass immigration is starting to harm those individual countries. Presently 1 in 6 people living in Britain weren't born here. That's an astonishing and very significant increase. And England (because that's where the bulk of it is) absolutely doesn't have the infrastructure to support mass immigration. That is a fact.

Maybe you are lucky enough to live somewhere in the UK where you are still able to access housing, schools and medical appointments. I'm not. My city is full to over flowing and the amount of people sleeping on the streets is out of control. People now living in tents. Drug dealing is at an all time high, out there, openly. We've had more immigration in the past few decades than we've had in total over the past 2000 years. No infrastructure to match that huge increase of people. One example being no school places in Kent due to immigration and local children being bused out 25 miles to school.This is not ok. There is not the space, money or infrastructure to support mass migration to this small country. We cannot continue to add uncontrolled numbers to the population. It doesn't mean I want people to go, I don't, if they're already here. I want them to stay and integrate into British culture. But immigration cannot continue to rise at the levels it has been, it needs to be hugely reduced.

lollipoprainbow · 06/11/2022 12:26

@LesterBiggot 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

LesterBiggot · 06/11/2022 12:27

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 06/11/2022 12:10

You can learn, too. it’s a common mistake, don’t be disheartened.

I believe it's called Muphry's law.

(Carefully checks for spelling mistakes.🤦)

Cornettoninja · 06/11/2022 12:58

@LesterBiggot

absolutely doesn't have the infrastructure to support mass immigration

Firstly, ’Mass immigration’ isn’t happening. That’s language of propaganda. The numbers don’t support it.

Secondly, of all the issues you list which one do you think will be resolved by a, frankly, naziesque immigration policy? Don’t you question why a government would spend millions, billions in fact, on something that hasn’t worked and shows no signs of working instead creating worse problems? These are the same issues the legitimate population face on a daily basis. Why isn’t the priority sorting that out rather than finger pointing at dinghies in the channel?

Mycatsgoldtooth · 06/11/2022 12:58

I notice you lots of people on this thread saying “oh it’s great - these lads could be builders”. Missing the point that the influx of cheap workers from abroad disincentives the training of uk nationals. It is not the case that huge amounts of immigration have no impact on people already in a country. There are obviously people on this thread that don’t like the idea of nation states with borders but it is a very good way of making sure a country is stable and peaceful if the people within it feel they are part of something. We are very lucky in the UK to have had a peaceful country, look at the political turmoil of the last months. Have we seen succession wars, riots.. no it’s been a smooth process within the population. If you destabilise the nation state then you destabilise your own life. It’s not racist or xenophobic for people to have an opinion on migratory patterns. It impacts everyone, but the poorest in society will be most impacted.

Mycatsgoldtooth · 06/11/2022 13:00

@Cornettoninja what do you mean by mass immigration is not happening? I’m interested to know what amount of immigration you feel is optimal and sustainable? This is a good faith question btw.

Cornettoninja · 06/11/2022 13:00

disincentives the training of uk nationals

what training of UK nationals? That’s been eroded over the past decade hence the massive shortages in skilled workers.