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Albanian migrants question

461 replies

Notthetoothfairy · 05/11/2022 11:52

Everyone knows the U.K. is really short of staff since Brexit and that is pushing up prices for food etc. If we now (like it or not) have a huge influx of Albanian young men who actually want to work, wouldn’t we be better off letting them legally get jobs here and treating them like the Europeans who left?

Maybe I’m being too simplistic here but I’m not sure how keeping them unhappily detained for long periods in processing centres then spending something like £7m a day putting them in hotels without letting them work is helping anyone. Obviously it’s different if someone has just come over to claim benefits and has no intention of working but I get the impression that’s not the case for a lot of these young men.

If you think I’m wrong, you can explain why and still be nice about it 😁

OP posts:
JustWork · 05/11/2022 20:59

Echobelly · 05/11/2022 20:07

I think there's a massive misrepresentation of why people choose to come to England. The RW media love to crow that 'Everyone knows the UK has the most generous benefits system in the world' (they don't and it isn't) - I mean, how much do you know about benefits systems of any other country? Plus we don't take anything like the biggest proportion of migrants/asylum seekers.

I think people come here because they have family here; they speak or at least understand some English; because ultimately they'd love to go to America, but they can't get there but at least they can get to the UK and then maybe if they learn English they can get to America. It's really not that we're all that.

The fact that we speak English is a major factor, I think. Also considering how much of the world the British empire covered it's natural that many people feel a familiarity with the UK that they don't feel with other countries.

XingMing · 05/11/2022 21:06

what would you do if the U.K. became inhospitable?

The same as I plan to do if I am ever diagnosed with a terminal disease... which is to say that I would buy a single shot in a dodgy weapon, and wade into the sea and fire the bullet through my mouth.

XingMing · 05/11/2022 21:14

With full identification papers laminated and attached to my corpse with a cable tie.

Blossomtoes · 05/11/2022 21:15

LikeTearsInRain · 05/11/2022 20:57

just close the borders and send them on boats back to Calais

Brilliant. Why has nobody thought of that? 🙄

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 05/11/2022 21:15

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/05/we-all-want-to-leave-poverty-not-fuels-the-urge-to-flee-albania

This is what the Guardian has to say. It supports the idea that it's the economy that drives the migration, not human trafficking.

inamarina · 05/11/2022 21:18

Ilovemycatalot · 05/11/2022 16:56

The only thing I often find is everyone seems ok if it is women and children coming here. The fact is that would cost more for the tax payer in the long run as opposed to a single male. Children taking more resources such as needing school places doctors etc and women who are mothers less likely to work due to caring responsibilities. Women with kids can be economic migrants as well they are just looked more favourably upon.

I don’t know the numbers, but isn’t it quite a bit less common for mothers with young children to seek asylum by themselves?
More often one hears about single young men arriving, or families (apart from the Ukranian women and their kids).
Large groups of single young men also create a shift in the demographic - what are the consequences for the local women?
And are these men actually happy to just fill the vacancies in the low pay sectors?
As someone else said upthread, large groups of single male asylum seekers/refugees/economic migrants is not necessarily the same as the EU workers who used to come to the UK under different conditions.

woodhill · 05/11/2022 21:43

Albania was nothing to do with the British Empire

mynamesnotMa · 05/11/2022 21:46

They need to go home.

Stephy1886 · 05/11/2022 21:56

mynamesnotMa · 05/11/2022 21:46

They need to go home.

Tommy Robinson! Come on down!

BlueDitty1 · 05/11/2022 22:29

The prejudice and xenophobia in this thread is staggering, although not surprising considering it is being fuelled from the top down.

Consider why suddenly a Home Secretary under fire is focusing on 10k Albanians out of 60k arrivals this year. What else could be going on in the UK at the moment they want to distract you from , choose from a crashing economy , soaring mortgages and energy bills......oh but look over there some foreign bad men on a boat! But she kept her job so that’s what matters. By the way who are the 50k others who have arrived this year....where are they from ..?

As for Albanians, they are simply a distraction. The Albanian community in the uk is about small, under 150k , and there are 6 million migrants in the UK! They are mostly hard working people with normal jobs, families, friends, living a normal life trying to get by.

This wave of racism in the last few weeks, criminalising every person who gets up in the morning to earn a crust in a country they have made home, sometimes for decades, is devastating.

Migration must be discussed, borders and regulations tightened, but the language we use matters. I am hearing instances of racist abuse directed at Albanian children and teenagers in London schools, as a direct result of the news. That is not fair or humane.

Mamamia7962 · 06/11/2022 08:42

Blueditty - In 2020 there were 8410 migrants who came across in boats, that went up to 28,381 in 2021, this year that number has already increased to 40,000. We cannot keep allowing this to happen.

These people don't need to make that journey. They are already safe in France, Germany etc.

If you think that makes me xenophobic, prejudiced, racist or any other nonsense you want to spout then I couldn't give a fuck.

lollipoprainbow · 06/11/2022 08:49

@Mamamia7962 👏👏👏👏

AutumnCrow · 06/11/2022 08:51

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/05/most-britons-think-country-has-lost-control-of-its-border-since-brexit-poll

Only 7% of Opinium respondents believe government is in control of situation in the English Channel

Just seen this in today's Guardian online

TerfTerf · 06/11/2022 09:06

From The Spectator this week:

A friend of mine works in a surgery in London where lots of asylum seekers go for treatment. The caseload is a snapshot of current trends in illegal immigration, and at present that means lots of Albanians.
Yep, that’s the migrant influx across the Channel we’ve been hearing so much about, and which the Albanian PM, Edi Rama, has been blaming on the British government: ‘It’s not about Albanians or aliens or gangsters, but it’s about failed policies on borders and on crime,’ he said this week.
Three cases give an idea of what’s going on. One patient was a nurse from Tirana, Albania’s capital, but had found it impossible on a nurse’s wage to buy somewhere to live. So she saved up her money to pay the people traffickers; the going rate to get to Britain starts around £3,000-4,000 and can go up to £10,000. Getting across Europe isn’t hard; it’s getting from France that’s the issue.
Then there was a man from northern Albania who was wounded fighting with the KLA in Kosovo and nearly blind with diabetes; his son, aged 18 or so, was with him; he has serious health conditions which can’t properly be treated at home; besides, social welfare is more generous here.
The third was a married couple with a young child from the south; the wife was a nurse. The cross-Channel journey in the dinghy was hell; there had been water up to their waists for what seemed like hours. But when the British boat – presumably the coastguard – arrived, everything changed. It was, like, she said, the promised land. The husband had a reason for wanting out of Albania; his family was involved in a blood feud. She was scared of the traffickers: terrorists, she called them. Certainly she wasn’t going to shop them; they’re here and if anyone gives them trouble, it would be tricky for their family back home.

Are these legitimate asylum seekers in the sense of having a well founded fear of persecution? I’d say not, myself. But they’re not simply economic migrants either.

Why leave Albania – parts of which are beautiful – for an unprepossessing bedsit in a dispiriting London borough? The experts I sounded out, friends and a friend of a friend, interestingly don’t focus primarily on the economy to explain the exodus – because it really is an exodus of the younger generation. Rather, it’s to do with Albania being a failed state: the absence of the rule of law, the sense that the place is being run by a corrupt coterie for its own benefit, the hopelessness about the prospects for change, the narco-economy. One recent paper put the number who’ve left the country since the advent of Edi Rama, the socialist prime minister, in 2013, at 700,000. If Rama wants to know what’s really behind the exodus of Albanians, he could do worse than look in the mirror.
Romeo Gurakuqi, a conservative MP in Albania until he was dropped by his party at the last election, used to be terrifically idealistic about politics 20 years ago. He says flatly that the way Albania is governed doesn’t square with it being a member of Nato and a candidate for EU membership: ‘The way of governance, arrogance, inequality, corruption, lack of control of the rule of law, lack of guarantee for the development of business and foreign investments in the country, have all increased the depression in society,’ he says.
Turkey’s president Erdogan is a close ally of Rama’s; he’s funding yet another mega mosque, in Albania, as part of his grand project to revive Ottomanism. But this type of investment is unusual.
For most Albanians, says Gurakuqi, times are hard: ‘Albanian society is in a deep depression, not only economic and social, but also a state of anxiety, insecurity about life, which extends to the lower and middle classes of society’.
Gurakuqi notes that many of the arrivals to the UK are from his own area, northern Albania; it’s discriminated against, he says, by a political class dominated by the south. He adds:
‘Why do they only come to the UK? I think that they are spread all over continental Europe. They move freely because Albania is part of the Schengen agreement. But they think the UK offers more opportunities.’
You could add to that other factors identified in a report by the German Konrad Adenauer Foundation in 2020. It points to the bizarre land reforms that followed the fall of the Hoxha regime in the early 1990s. The communists appropriated private property in 1945; when the regime fell, a new law – 7519 – recognised the ownership of the land by those farming it, while also recognising the land was confiscated. So, no one owns it until compensation is paid, and the compensation process takes forever. With little secure ownership, there’s no incentive to invest in agriculture; the resulting exodus is especially acute from rural villages.

According to Eurostat, the number of Albanian asylum seekers is the highest in relation to population anywhere. The population fell between the beginning of this year by 14 per cent since 1990, to just under 2.8 million. Most of that fall is attributable to emigration, legal and illegal.
Afrim Krasniqi, director of the Institute of Political Studies, observes that emigration is on two levels:
‘The first and less talked about is the migration of professionals towards technologically advanced countries such as Germany. The second is related to the emigration of poorly educated (but not necessarily poor) individuals heading mostly to Britain. Numerically, the first category is significantly larger, but it does not attract the attention of the media, as it is legal migration that’s actually liked by the countries concerned.’
Although he identifies the dearth of Western investment as a problem, he too sees a bigger issue:
‘The concept of the rule of law and functional democracy here is neither effective nor appealing; a large and growing part of the citizens do not believe in change as a process they can affect. We are not dealing with political violence, but with high level corruption that significantly limits political freedoms and average living standards. It’s not poverty that pushes people away, it’s social insecurity and a lack of faith in change.’
Another friend, a former senior public servant, blames Rama for the collapse in standards in public life. There were reports this week, for instance, about the number of flights the PM took by private jet. This friend sent me a succession of stories on the alleged misconduct of the last election, but the most telling thing was that he didn’t want to be named; he was afraid.
The mystery is that there’s so little critical scrutiny of the Albanian political class and government by Western embassies, including Britain’s. Some observers put this down to corruption. Krasniqi observes that ‘the EU but also the UK do not have an active or effective strategy in Albania; the priority is the short-term interest in stability and control, not that of functional democracy and open societies…The model of the Albanian and regional politician that is promoted by the “West” is mainly the wrong model that the citizens here do not want, that of the strong, arrogant, corrupt and authoritarian politician.’
One response to the influx of Albanians to Britain is to send them home. Fine; fair enough. Ignore Edi Rama – whose party, it should be noted, is pretty well a successor to that of the unlamented dictator, Enver Hoxha. The harder option is to confront the problems in Albania – endemic corruption, a narco-elite and a rotten political class – through diplomacy, the intelligent deployment of international aid, and a robust approach to money laundering. You could, of course, do both.

MarshaBradyo · 06/11/2022 09:08

Clavinova · 05/11/2022 20:44

LakieLady
If we were still in the EU, we could use to provisions of the Dublin regulation to send them back to the first EU country they arrived in.

House of Commons Library 2019

According to Home Office figures, between 2015 and 2018, 7,365 incoming requests were made to transfer people into the UK under the Dublin regulation, from which 2,365 people were transferred to the UK (some requests may still be pending).

This means that the UK accepted around 33% of requests. During the same period, the UK made 18,953 outgoing requests to transfer people to other Member States, from which 1,395 people were transferred abroad. This amounts to around 7% of outgoing requests by the UK resulting in a transfer.

In 2018, the UK received a total of 37,453 asylum applications, and made 5,510 outgoing transfer requests under Dublin III. Of these 5,510 requests, 209 migrants were transferred out of the UK under Dublin III, whilst 1,215 came in, making the UK a net recipient in 2018.

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/what-is-the-dublin-iii-regulation-will-it-be-affected-by-brexit/

It doesn’t seem many were sent back pre Brexit anyway. It requires something more effective than this.

User963 · 06/11/2022 09:22

Stephy1886 · 05/11/2022 20:45

ARE BORDERS!!!

You tell them Thommeh Robinson lester!

????? It is
Our not are.
although it is borders not boarders.

Stephy1886 · 06/11/2022 09:27

User963 · 06/11/2022 09:22

????? It is
Our not are.
although it is borders not boarders.

People down south (of the Tommy Robinson ilk) pronounce the word “our” as “are”
are queen!
are majesty!
are poppys
are cuntry! (Country)

BlueDitty1 · 06/11/2022 09:52

Mamamia7962 · 06/11/2022 08:42

Blueditty - In 2020 there were 8410 migrants who came across in boats, that went up to 28,381 in 2021, this year that number has already increased to 40,000. We cannot keep allowing this to happen.

These people don't need to make that journey. They are already safe in France, Germany etc.

If you think that makes me xenophobic, prejudiced, racist or any other nonsense you want to spout then I couldn't give a fuck.

Whether these people need to make the journey or not is not your concern, according to current rules they can have their cases heard. You want to make their cases heard quicker and turn them back faster, take it up with the Government who cannot do their job.

Wanting the government to solve the migration issue is not racist (whether it is solveable or not is a different matter).

Calling a whole nation or desperate people making a dangerous journey criminals, is racist, whether you give a fuck or not.

Notthetoothfairy · 06/11/2022 10:10

There’s an article in the Sunday Times today which suggests that most are economic migrants who want jobs rather than trafficked by drug lords. Some are, of course, trafficked and the drugs gangs hang around the ‘jungle’ in France looking for Albanian recruits (offering to pay for their passage to the U.K.) but many migrants come of their own accord hoping to earn money legitimately.

Not sure how to remove from paywall but extracts below:

In Krume, the main town in Has, about two and a half hours’ drive north of Tirana, a large red telephone box sits outside a café called “Britain”. Around here, the lure of the UK is such that schools are emptying at an alarming rate: this summer alone 40 teenagers disappeared from classes at the local high school.

Nine years ago 700 pupils were taught here; today there are only 460. Leandra’s siblings and parents still live in Has, where the population has decreased from about 17,000 to 9,000 in the past decade due to migration to the UK.

Besim Dani, head teacher of Skenderbeu high school, which has pupils aged between 15 and 18, said the exodus was “tragic”. “It makes me feel very, very sad, and it is also scary for their safety,” Dani, 50, said. “Some were excellent pupils, they could have been the engineers, doctors, politicians for Albania. Every family here feels very bad; every day we see less kids in the streets and hear less voices.”

Leandra had already left Has to work as a fast-food cook in Tirana, but had always told relatives that she longed for a better life for herself and her daughter away from Albania: seeing her fellow countrymen successfully making the illegal trek over the summer spurred her to start planning her own trip to Britain. “Now it is more open and everybody is leaving and she took her trip because she thinks it is a good time [to go],” her brother said. “It is terrible for everyone. In the end she is [making] a sacrifice for her daughter for a better life. When you go and take the boat either you die or you get to your destination.”

Albanians who have settled in Britain who agreed to speak last week had one plea: “Let us work.”.

Mentor Bokciu, 39, arrived illegally in the back of a lorry 22 years ago but now has the right to remain. As an unaccompanied minor, he was placed with an English foster family in east London, where he quickly learnt the language. He began in the building trade, eventually setting up his own company. Now a successful businessman, this year he opened the Illyrian Grill House, an Albanian restaurant in the migrants’ heartland in Palmers Green, north London.

The father of three, who lives in Grays, Essex, is originally from Has. He said: “It upsets me, but people haven’t got a bright future back home. It’s no surprise people want to go to a country which gives opportunities to younger people. This country has always been the most respectful country, respecting other nationalities. The people that are coming here because of financial reasons want to work. The problem is the way they enter the country means they can’t. Many can’t get a job or a house or pay tax.”

OP posts:
TheHateIsNotGood · 06/11/2022 10:11

Good Article *TerfTerf - I would also add that since the Kosovan War, which involved the persecution of Kosovan Albanians, that because of the UK's response and assisstance (under Tony Blair) many Albanians have felt an 'affinity' with the UK. It is a few years since I last visited Albania (for holidays) but the vast majority of Albanians are kind, thoughtful and welcoming; and seem to have a sense of humour very similar to the UK.

TheHateIsNotGood · 06/11/2022 10:15

My solution would be for the UK to work closely with Albania and provide substantial financial aid to improve the conditions within Albania itself.

jennakong · 06/11/2022 10:17

Anyone, an accompanying parent or guardian, putting a child on one of those boats should be charged with child endangerment the minute they land in the UK. Making an unsafe journey from safe country yourself is one thing, putting a child through it 'for a better life' as the economic migrants from Albania are, is criminal.

Cornettoninja · 06/11/2022 10:21

TheHateIsNotGood · 06/11/2022 10:15

My solution would be for the UK to work closely with Albania and provide substantial financial aid to improve the conditions within Albania itself.

Now this I do disagree with. The UK isn’t the worlds social worker.

I don’t see how it makes sense to ply money into another country (coughRwandacough) when the same money could be invested here to make it less appealing to gangs and traffickers with other benefits for UK society. Which brings me back to policing here.

Of course this isn’t as popular because it still retains responsibility to asylum seekers and doesn’t have any appeal to those who just want to indulge their prejudice.

lollipoprainbow · 06/11/2022 10:24

@TheHateIsNotGood my solution would be for the uk to plough the 7million a day it's costing on hotels etc back into the uk economy to help us ! We aren't a charity for other countries.

Cornettoninja · 06/11/2022 10:26

lollipoprainbow · 06/11/2022 10:24

@TheHateIsNotGood my solution would be for the uk to plough the 7million a day it's costing on hotels etc back into the uk economy to help us ! We aren't a charity for other countries.

Or plough that cash into building social housing which would benefit migrants and the public alike…

Theres no value for money in anything this government is proposing.