To not understand the nastiness that being a housewife provokes 2

[Alondra]

Apologies for making a second part to this thread but I feel strongly about this issue.

Topgub

Possibly because there aren't any benefits

Few countries have a government system caring about women and children. The majority of our governments don't care if all have to work for a pittance to pay mortgage, bills and food when children are small because average couples need both wages. A system where nursery fees are stratospheric and eating half an average wage, and worse still, because parents working full time, making an average pay to be able to survive, have few serious tax concessions. Those tax concessions go to multinationals.

It's a system that only cares about productivity attached to $. If you are an engineer with projects worth a million dollars, your salary will be minimum 15% of that money annually. If you are a carer or a parent, there is no quoted money attached to your work, so you are in a low wage or no wage at all.

A woman with two kids working full time for an average salary has not gained much from my mother’s time. Working full time, taking care of the kids when they are home and doing the lion share of housework and rarely free time at all.

With housing costs, bills and health systems collapsing, I really fear for women in the next few years. We will get the short straw as we've always done, but it'll be a plus if, at least, we don't turn on each other.

You think I've never considered childcare or looked into it for my own kids? Unlike some posters I'm not so narrow minded to never consider the other side of it.

But then you wouldn't be able to be on here, for the past 3 days.

I'm only on here till I go back to work tomorrow night.

Of course, you can refute a discussion concerning an abstract. There is no objective truth to be found. It could be argued that past societies were religious, familial, and communal. Modern societies are scientific and industrial. Past societies were ascriptive and particularistic and modern societies achievement-oriented. Industrial and urban sociology and the sociology of stratification as opposed to the sociology of religion, the family, and communities.

Some people have this obsession with the stratification of the family unit, in particular, a suspicion based on the loose abstract of power. However, despite these theories permeating policy and societies, women in the main still want men, babies, and a family. How dare they, what about STEM?
So despite 400 yrs of enlightenment, modernism, post-modernism, and late modernism, industrialism, capitalism, and consumerism lashing and raining down abstracts about patriarchy and social pressure. Some are still quite happy to stay and home and be a mum.

Ultimately this is what pisses off the placard bra-burning theorists the most.

@AMorningstar

Ah.

The i can't prove you wrong so I'm going to stop engaging defence.

Excellent.

I don't want to stop you or anyone being a sahm. If it makes you happy, thats great. For you.

But I absolutely will not bow down to your bullshit claiming the moral highground all the while pretending you don't.

You absolutely judge working mothers. You absolutely think they are failing their children

And that attitude can get tae fuck.

Being a sahm clearly suits some individuals. But there is absolutely no evidence women are biologically primed or have evolved to be one their whole lives. There is no evidence it is anything more than a modern lifestyle choice mostly used as a tool to keep women in their place.

I won't ever agree it is anything other than something women are mostly forced into with a few well off women using it as a stick to beat other women with

And if that annoys you or makes you think I'm mental, all the better.

I'll keep annoying anyone who thinks like you along as I can.

Yep I agree again! My mum was a stay at home parent but she wanted more for me

So was mine, gave up a good job in the civil service to trail around Europe after my father. I grew up expected to go to University (currently part way through degree number 3) and not under any circumstances marry anyone in the military or the Foreign Office. However in my case, biology got in the way. Not the broodiness (that was dh) but the postnatal mental illness. Illness, injury, additional needs, circumstances change. It's easy to have absolutes when they aren't being tested but should your daughters develop postpartum psychosis as I did, I'd hope you'd have more sympathy if it cost them their sense of self and their careers than my mother did.

I'd also argue that lumping all sahps together doesn't help. I worked from my mid teens (around school/University) until dc1 was born when I was 37. The sahms I know socially fit that pattern too. I used to live and breathe my job, it was at points all consuming. I pursued every extra duty, conference and opportunity ruthlessly. Now I utilise those same characteristics for voluntary work. Strategies for encouraging women who had careers back to work are likely to be different from those who have never had what my charming fil would describe as a "proper" job because there are different obstacles in their way. The cost of childcare for example does not factor in my decision at all.

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Precisely. And also why I can't be bothered engaging with her.

"babies are biologically designed to be close to their mother"

What about their fathers? Are they not biologically designed to be close to them too? Did your child not bond with their father due to not seeing them every hour as a baby?
Sorry I think that's the kind of thinking which guilts mothers into staying at home.. I breast fed my son til 6 months when he began to wean (not everyone can I know) .. i went back to work at 7 months and my husband looked after him whilst I was at work.until.9 months.. then he went to nursery 3 days a week at first.. he is very securely attached. He's a wonderful social cuddley boy not afraid to talk about feelings and doing well at school. So where is your evidence that babies are damaged by being with anyone other than mum all hours? How was he 'not exposed to real life' in a nursery? Surely it's more like real life as when they go to school they are not with mum 24/7? He had no.issues going to school or nursery by the way, no clinginess or screaming and crying... If anything I felt worse dropping him off than he felt going. He still has strong friendships with some of those babies he met at nursery who now go to school with him! So why on earth do you think nursery is detrimental.. I would say some nurseries are better than others of course but that's for the parent to check them out. You make them sound like a Romanian orphanage when in reality my son's nursery was like a luxury hotel with forest school and swimming pool! I used to joke with them could I have what he was having in terms of the food they had! I couldn't have given him that at home..the nursery staff were amazing caring people with more patience and childcare training than me!

Of course babies bond with their father too but I think the bond between a mother and child, at least initially, is different.

I don't think nurseries are all bad, providing it'd part time and from about 2 and up. But babies should be with their parents imo.

As for school I think a lot of schools aren't exactly great environments either so I wouldn't want to be mimicking that from 9 months old. I am happy it worked for you though

@RedAppleGirl

So you have the evidence then?

Of course some women want to conform to gender stereotypes. It's certainly easier.

And of course most people want a family life. That is a biological need.

What isn't is being a life long housewife.

What isn't fact is sahm are better mothers for conforming to a non existent biological need.

almost shut away in nurseries all day instead of interacting with normal life what with the curtains closed, chained to a chair eating gruel? You're being a tad dramatic there.

Do you home school?

Okay, that was hyperbolic. I don't think nurseries are horrible places but I do think they're better suited for older children and not full time. I've used them myself this way, but not until my kids were 4.

Not currently but its something I've done before and would do again.

I completely agree with @the1950sringringring this is now insane! 2 Alpha females going at it for 2 days straight what has anyone achieved ? Please just agree to disagree , this now cannot be good for either of your mental health .

@Wiccan

Oh don't be ridiculous.

My mh is robust enough to show up the nonsense being spouted on this thread. It's hardly taxing.

As if you care about anyone's mh anyway

Well I really don't think my post deserved that kind of response . You really are a horrible person !

Isn't she just? She admitted earlier she's just trying to annoy people intentionally so I'd let her nonsense go over your head. You sound like you were just trying to diffuse the heated debate, didn't deserve that response at all.

You dont think tone and behavior policing of womens opinions with accusations of damaging or poor mh deserves to be shut down?

I do

If I felt your concern was genuine I would have responded differently.

I dont need anyone telling me how to post, especially when your an hour too late.

Jesus no it didn't , I really don't even no what to say to that 🙄

I think she's one of those posters who just looks for a fight. You could agree with her and she'd find something to bite your head off about.

I agree. If everything goes swimmingly and there’s no break up, illness, other woman etc then there is a chance that if you would rather stay at home and not be part of the working world, that you can pull it off and get away with it unscathed. However it’s setting yourself up for a really bumpy ride and a huge imbalance of power. If it’s what you want personally then fine but you can’t pretend that we exist in silos. We are part of a larger society that needs people to contribute in a greater capacity than just for their own kids. People who create, provide, care and support, lead and influence all around us. The imbalance of power created by the man working and the woman being barefoot in the kitchen has taken years to even begin to redress. Let’s not go back there and pretend individual choices don’t have an impact on society on a wider scale. If we all felt we had the right to fanny about all day we’d be screwed!

A typical outcome for the subject matter. It feels like a bit of sport or entertainment for some under the guise of concern or meaningful debate.

Certainly seems that way .

Wow, this thread is really horrible 

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@Topgub please don't reply to my post I'm busy and I'm done ! please if you can think on this , If you truly believe that you are voicing women's rights all I can say is please stay the fuck off our side !

Eh no.

You and your wee pal don't get to talk about me like I'm not here while personally attacking me and then demand I dont respond.

The cheek of it lol.

But don't worry, I've no intention in bring on your side