To not understand the nastiness that being a housewife provokes 2

[Alondra]

Apologies for making a second part to this thread but I feel strongly about this issue.

Topgub

Possibly because there aren't any benefits

Few countries have a government system caring about women and children. The majority of our governments don't care if all have to work for a pittance to pay mortgage, bills and food when children are small because average couples need both wages. A system where nursery fees are stratospheric and eating half an average wage, and worse still, because parents working full time, making an average pay to be able to survive, have few serious tax concessions. Those tax concessions go to multinationals.

It's a system that only cares about productivity attached to $. If you are an engineer with projects worth a million dollars, your salary will be minimum 15% of that money annually. If you are a carer or a parent, there is no quoted money attached to your work, so you are in a low wage or no wage at all.

A woman with two kids working full time for an average salary has not gained much from my mother’s time. Working full time, taking care of the kids when they are home and doing the lion share of housework and rarely free time at all.

With housing costs, bills and health systems collapsing, I really fear for women in the next few years. We will get the short straw as we've always done, but it'll be a plus if, at least, we don't turn on each other.

Today I saw a meme about stay at home mums being cross about being asked what they do all do - the gist was that they’re actually run off their feet. Which I think is the case go pre school age children.

But the narrative that it’s like that when you have school age children annoys me- our household has the same admin and cleaning and washing etc but it all has to be done outside working hours. If I had six hours a day to get home stuff done, my life just would be much easier.

I work term time only. That makes my life much easier than someone who doesn’t. I am happy to admit that! I hate the constant race to the bottom.

@Topgub There was literally one other poster who mentioned jealousy briefly and she didn't go into the potential systemic reasons for that. Absolutely nobody on this thread has made "accusations" against you and yet you seem to be taking personally nearly every post that doesn't agree with you.

Personally I think this thread is going to die a death because nobody on it seems to want to listen to each other about the issues raised. Which is a shame because as I said in my first post, the systemic disempowerment is what we should all target our energy at. But as Brian said, there's no helping some people.

@PeekabooAtTheZoo

Being exasperated by unfounded general accusations of jealousy isn't taking it personally.

And you're still not getting the irony.

Insults are not subjective. They can be brutal or passive, but both are clear insults which is what the OP was talking in her original post.

We can all do much better than offering paternalistic crap when a woman is posting something against what we believe. We can offer our experience, our thoughts and what realistically may happen if they are not protected by a job without having to turn on them.

Until the day we women understand that what keeps us down should not be other women, we will not get the serious change needed to replace $ for a kinder society that TRULY values stay at home mums and children.

Shouldn’t you be busy with your kids, housework and hobbies?

@Alondra

I dont want a society that truly values the role of sahm though.

The role offers nothing of value to society. That is my experience. Those are my thoughts.

Society valuing children is a different subject.

Personally I think this thread is going to die a death because nobody on it seems to want to listen to each other about the issues raised. Which is a shame because as I said in my first post, the systemic disempowerment is what we should all target our energy at. But as Brian said, there's no helping some people.

It's that systemic disempowerment that made open this second thread, knowing it's going to die pretty soon.

I must have missed something as I struggle to understand OP’s point.

The only « issue » people might have with SAHM/W is that they are not paying tax on earning therefore not contributing to society (vs working and paying taxes + using nursery which also helps the economy/employment).
Except that, personal choice!

(I have been both SAHM and working mum so honestly I don’t care what anybody does)

What systemic disempowerment has prevented the previous op from making her choice?

Yes, governments, like you, think there is no value in costing care for children, disabled or aged. It's the reason why stay at home mums and care work has no pay or is lowly paid.

I believe in a different, kinder society. There is more than enough money to fund it except multinationals want to get richer without paying taxes.

@Alondra

Being a stay at home is a lifestyle choice.

Not a job.

It is not the govts job to fund lifestyle choices.

Paid care roles should absolutely be better paid. Actual carers should be better supported.

Ah, just you do you. Whether that be work or home duties. YOLO and all that, as long as you’re happy then who gives a damn what anyone else thinks? You can get criticised for working or not working, long hair or short hair, kids or no kids, married or single, fat or thin. You won’t please everyone so just do what works best for you and your family. Different strokes for different folks

I don’t understand the concept of jealousy here. I assume these posters who think this think men are also jealous of them, or are they some way thinking it’s a ubiquitous female trait to not wish to work but stay home and do chores. In this day and age do people really think this way?

of course there are some women who don’t wish to work. As there are men, and quite a lot of them going by the sheer volume of cocklodger threads.

But it’s not the majority, do people really still see women like this? That we really don’t want to work and prefer to stay home doing laundry or other household chores`/

I am a woman. I am married to a man. His salary would have made it more than feasible for me to stop work if I chose. I did not and do not choose. I love working and my career. I love the mental stimulation, the financial independence, the social side, the job satisfaction, the financial independence and contribution.

I don’t want to stay home and clean and cook. I am not envious of women who do. I don’t want to be paid for. Just like my husband. He doesn’t want to stay home and clean and cook either.

i really cannot comprehend on 2022 that there are still people out there who actually think given a choice as women we would prefer to live in the 1950s. We do not. Sure a small minority do. But I certainly don’t and I don’t know any woman who does. My friends, my colleagues. None of us want to stay home and most of us could do if we so chose.

we fought long and hard for social and economic equality. This attitude of its jealousy all women would chose to wash pants given the choice has to stop. It’s so wrong it’s lost sight of right.

@Fairylightsongs

Good point.

I've never seen a man accused of being jealous of the systemic issues that result in women wanting to be sahms.

Or bitter that they aren't sahds

I do not have issues with anyone being a housewife ? I have issues with people wanting to be portrait as superheroes for being one .
Has a mum to girls I admit I would I prefer them to have a career outside the house than being housewife’s or sahm’s . But that is not because I have an issue with people who do it , because it often comes with an added loss of financial independence .
As the person who earns the most in the household I admit I would have liked longer maternity leave and added security ,but I’m not sure I would choose to stay at home unless I was a millionaire and really did nit need anyone’s wages

I get and respect being a stay at home parent. But I will never respect being a housewife/househusband (no kids/grown kids) or having that as an aspiration. I think you need to earn your own living if you want to name yourself a functional adult. And that goes for both genders.

It's not a lifestyle choice. Many women can't stay at home caring for their small children because they need their wage to pay for living essentials, even if their net take pay is crap when nursery and couple taxes take most of it.

A serious institutional change towards women would go like this.

1. Free nursery fees up to market average wage
2. Parents staying home with small children up to school age receiving a basic salary.
3. Care work positions being costed.
4. Health care to children to be considered priority within 24 hours.
5. Parents working full time to have unlimited family leave if their child have a serious health condition certified by a doctor.

You may all add to it. But until the day our societies recognise the value in $ that stay home parents and carers provide to governments and how little most of us women receive, we are all sidestepping the real issue.

Thread two
I knew you'd have to have the last word, OP

This is a good synopsis.

she also said that employed wives had less time for sex and personal grooming and therefore had less happy relationships, but insisted that there was nothing misogynistic about her attitudes.

@Alondra

Stay at home parents don't provide any value to govts.

It's your job to look after your children.

Parents staying home with small children up to school age receiving a basic salary.

This already exists, its called universal credit.

And of course being a sahm (when its an actual choice) is a lifestyle choice

What else could it be?

But this is a different OP. Gotta give it to @amorningstar for keeping away from this sequel thread. For now.

@Tandora

Oh yeah forgot that bit.

Until the day we women understand that what keeps us down should not be other women

'Should' and 'if' are the two most futile words in the English language. It shouldn't be women keeping other women down. But it very often is. I cite as a case in point the quite surprising rudeness and pushback I've had for daring to retain my own family name on marriage. I was genuinely bamboozled by this. I'd have thought, come 2008 (when I married) no one would give a stuff what women chose to call themselves, or what manner of obsolete titles they accept or reject.

Boy, was I wrong. And the in-laws persist in addressing me as Mrs Hisname to this day. It's very, very rarely men - in fact, thinking about it, I don't think any man has ever offered a comment on the subject.

Not really sure what people get out of this behaviour. No one has to defend their personal decisions to me, and I wouldn't consider justifying mine to them. I couldn't personally give a screw how other households organize their paid and domestic labour, and am happy to receive the same indifference/courtesy/call it what you will, in return.

And before this comes across as another 'I'm not like other girls!' protestation, or a bigging up of men at the expense of women, forget it. Men don't have to bother about what they call themselves, as it's not expected they will ever change their names or be referred to by title in a way that announces their sexual status. Nor have they historically needed to worry about domestic labour and childcare, as women have traditionally picked up the slack.

No wonder they can shrug their shoulders and not be bothered. This isn't a ringing endorsement of that.

A lot of women could be at home more but they dont want to as they dont enjoy it or they wont give up the big car, house extension etc.
Its not always about needing the money to pay the mortgage.

Women should respect and support each other.

I don't think we should, on the whole. Shared XX chromosomes don't confer any responsibility on me to support anyone, at least not on the basis of our common sex. Where I would offer support is for people who are suffering as a result of being the non-dominant sex, who are exploited, domestically, sexually, and culturally because of it, and in the struggle for a level-playing field in which women are not materially disadvantaged because of their sex.

We've never seen a culture or society in which this was the case. I hope, rather than expect, that this will ever happen. But what women do, the choices they make, as a result of that struggle for equality, are down to them. (It's the latter, incidentally, which is and always has been the object of feminism. If additional choices result, all well and good, and perhaps this is inevitable, but this isn't the objective.

I neither support nor denigrate those choices. They are, quite simply, none of my business and in the overall scheme of things are not important.