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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not understand the nastiness that being a housewife provokes 2

867 replies

Alondra · 31/10/2022 11:55

Apologies for making a second part to this thread but I feel strongly about this issue.

Topgub

Possibly because there aren't any benefits

Few countries have a government system caring about women and children. The majority of our governments don't care if all have to work for a pittance to pay mortgage, bills and food when children are small because average couples need both wages. A system where nursery fees are stratospheric and eating half an average wage, and worse still, because parents working full time, making an average pay to be able to survive, have few serious tax concessions. Those tax concessions go to multinationals.

It's a system that only cares about productivity attached to $. If you are an engineer with projects worth a million dollars, your salary will be minimum 15% of that money annually. If you are a carer or a parent, there is no quoted money attached to your work, so you are in a low wage or no wage at all.

A woman with two kids working full time for an average salary has not gained much from my mother’s time. Working full time, taking care of the kids when they are home and doing the lion share of housework and rarely free time at all.

With housing costs, bills and health systems collapsing, I really fear for women in the next few years. We will get the short straw as we've always done, but it'll be a plus if, at least, we don't turn on each other.

OP posts:
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Purplefoxes · 01/11/2022 15:00

Topgub · 01/11/2022 14:56

@Purplefoxes

Did you ever ask him if he wanted to be a sahd?

If not, why not.

And yes.

I think its entirely down to conditioning.

It never occurred to me to ask..him...I might now though and let you know what he says! I'd worry about there being an imbalance in our relationship to be honest..and somehow him feeling emasculated... I guess that means I've been conditioned too?!

Topgub · 01/11/2022 15:01

@AMorningstar

How do you suggest these men find the tiny amount of women who don't want to be a sahm?

Topgub · 01/11/2022 15:02

@Purplefoxes

Do you think families with sahms have a power imbalance?

Why would he be emasculated?!

AMorningstar · 01/11/2022 15:03

Topgub · 01/11/2022 14:59

@AMorningstar

I'd believe that if it wasn't entirely gendered

It's not arrogant. It's basic facts

And if I'm arrogant, so are you.

🤷‍♀️

What if we had your ideal meritocratic society- hypothetically. And everyone didn't have to make choices based on financial need and could follow their own desires. What if the choices still followed gendered patterns? What if it still showed more women choose to be the primary caregiver than the men?

Just because something is gendered doesn't mean people have been brainwashed. It may just be that naturally different people gravitate to different roles.

And yeah, you are arrogant. You assume any woman that makes a choice you disapprove of is brainwashed, rather than she genuinely wants that for herself.

Jennybeans401 · 01/11/2022 15:04

I get a bit annoyed when it's rubbed in my face as a working mum that other mums are out having their nails done and in the gym while I have zero time for myself. I'm parenting solo as my dh died not long ago, I really yearn for time alone.

AMorningstar · 01/11/2022 15:05

Topgub · 01/11/2022 15:01

@AMorningstar

How do you suggest these men find the tiny amount of women who don't want to be a sahm?

I mean talking about it before you have kids would be a good start. People laughed at me and DH discussing our views on divorce, finances and children but we know absolutely where the other stands on these things.

Talk about it with prospective partners, end the relationship if its a deal breaker to you and you're not a good fit. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Topgub · 01/11/2022 15:08

@AMorningstar

And you assume everyone but you is brainwashed by capitalism.

The difference is, thats not actually what I think.

We're all conditioned by societal norms. One way or another. It's crazy to deny that.

Some are more heavily influenced in some ways than others

Scandinavian countries, for example, there are very few sahp.

I'd imagine in a completely non gendered society there would still be some women who wanted to be sahms and some men who didn't.

But it wouldn't be a 98/2 % split.

It would hopefully be far closer to 50/50 or even better both working and sharing childcare where possible.

I know you get really insecure and defensive when it's suggested that you're wrong but it's not about you personally.

For the 50th time

Topgub · 01/11/2022 15:09

@AMorningstar

But that won't help either because according to you these women don't really exist.

So what then?

RedAppleGirl · 01/11/2022 15:09

These discussions about men and work are founded on the presumption that men actually enjoy their job. They don't, they're not all flying around on private jets playing golf on a weekend.
I believe people make choices out of necessity, Dp has previously done both Sahd, run a business and been a PAYE employee.
He says Sahd was very fulfilling and far easier than the physical and mental demands of working.

AMorningstar · 01/11/2022 15:11

Topgub · 01/11/2022 15:08

@AMorningstar

And you assume everyone but you is brainwashed by capitalism.

The difference is, thats not actually what I think.

We're all conditioned by societal norms. One way or another. It's crazy to deny that.

Some are more heavily influenced in some ways than others

Scandinavian countries, for example, there are very few sahp.

I'd imagine in a completely non gendered society there would still be some women who wanted to be sahms and some men who didn't.

But it wouldn't be a 98/2 % split.

It would hopefully be far closer to 50/50 or even better both working and sharing childcare where possible.

I know you get really insecure and defensive when it's suggested that you're wrong but it's not about you personally.

For the 50th time

I'm not insecure nor defensive, no matter how much you wish I wish I was.

You imagine that, but you have no evidence. Scandinavia also has a culture that looks down upon SAHP so not exactly a fair comparison.

Both working and sharing is not "even better" for everyone. This is what annoys me about you. You think your way is beat for everyone, end of, and refuse refuse acknowledge that its not an objective reality and not automatically right for others.

AMorningstar · 01/11/2022 15:11

Topgub · 01/11/2022 15:09

@AMorningstar

But that won't help either because according to you these women don't really exist.

So what then?

I've said, MULTIPLE times, that they do exist. Ffs.

Purplefoxes · 01/11/2022 15:12

Topgub · 01/11/2022 15:02

@Purplefoxes

Do you think families with sahms have a power imbalance?

Why would he be emasculated?!

Not necessarily. However...my mum was a stay at home mum and had a power imbalance with my dad as he earned the cash and made sure she knew it..I'm not saying that's all relationships, that's just what I witnessed growing up..she is very dependent on him now even though he is an abusive arse. I suppose it is more a risk if one person doesn't appreciate the others input if it is less tangible/taken for granted..I suppose it's harder to leave also if you have less financial independence?

I'm not sure why I thought he might feel emasculated, probably because it isn't common for men to be SAHD is it? All conditioning/societal expectations I guess..? The only way to know would be to ask!

AMorningstar · 01/11/2022 15:13

RedAppleGirl · 01/11/2022 15:09

These discussions about men and work are founded on the presumption that men actually enjoy their job. They don't, they're not all flying around on private jets playing golf on a weekend.
I believe people make choices out of necessity, Dp has previously done both Sahd, run a business and been a PAYE employee.
He says Sahd was very fulfilling and far easier than the physical and mental demands of working.

Yeah I noticed this. DH doesn't even like working and would give it up tomorrow. The idea that a career is some sort of wonderful thing is not a prominent idea outside of MN, among either men or women. He laughed when I showed him the comments of women acting like a career was the meaning of life, his actual words were "who the fuck actually wants to work if they don't need to?!"

But yeah men are advantaged and poor SAHMs are not.

Topgub · 01/11/2022 15:14

@AMorningstar

Awww.

Diddums. Are you annoyed?

Tough shit lol. Not my problem you can't open with people having a different opinion to you to the point you're actually scared of it.

There's plenty evidence that social norms are conditioned. Tons. That's why they change.

What was acceptable 50 years ago isn't now.

If social norms were biological only they wouldn't change.

Topgub · 01/11/2022 15:15

AMorningstar · 01/11/2022 15:11

I've said, MULTIPLE times, that they do exist. Ffs.

Have you?

Must have missed it.

OK then

What % are we talking?

Given that you've just said that no one outside of mn actually wants to work because daddy said so?

AMorningstar · 01/11/2022 15:16

Topgub · 01/11/2022 15:14

@AMorningstar

Awww.

Diddums. Are you annoyed?

Tough shit lol. Not my problem you can't open with people having a different opinion to you to the point you're actually scared of it.

There's plenty evidence that social norms are conditioned. Tons. That's why they change.

What was acceptable 50 years ago isn't now.

If social norms were biological only they wouldn't change.

Never said social norms were biological. Don't conflate a very specific set of norms with "social norms" as a whole.

You're projecting there, BTW. I'm fine with you having a difference of opinion. I've said so multiple times. But you're not fine with others having it. You think your way is objectively correct for everyone and refuse to acknowledge its not the best for others. Its weird and narrow minded.

I'm not scared of your opinion either..I think it's stupid as hell but you can't enforce it on anyone so you're entitled to believe it.

Topgub · 01/11/2022 15:16

@Purplefoxes

Think you've got your answer

AMorningstar · 01/11/2022 15:17

Topgub · 01/11/2022 15:15

Have you?

Must have missed it.

OK then

What % are we talking?

Given that you've just said that no one outside of mn actually wants to work because daddy said so?

Stop projecting your daddy kink onto my husband you weirdo

I don't know the exact percentage. But I think few people of both genders truly want a career in the MN sense of the word. Most people work out of necessity, regardless of gender.

Topgub · 01/11/2022 15:18

@AMorningstar

Then why would it annoy you?

That makes no sense.

I'm not going to apologise for having ideals. Nothing wrong with it.

I think the world would be a vastly better place if more thought like me.

🤷‍♀️

Purplefoxes · 01/11/2022 15:19

RedAppleGirl · 01/11/2022 15:09

These discussions about men and work are founded on the presumption that men actually enjoy their job. They don't, they're not all flying around on private jets playing golf on a weekend.
I believe people make choices out of necessity, Dp has previously done both Sahd, run a business and been a PAYE employee.
He says Sahd was very fulfilling and far easier than the physical and mental demands of working.

If you don't mind my asking, why did he stop being a SAHD @RedAppleGirl ? If it was purely financial would he go back to doing it and if not why? I think it's really good to see men doing it to be honest, don't think it can hurt for equality! My husband did do shared parental leave with our son, he was terrified before hand but he loved it. They have a great bond now.

RedAppleGirl · 01/11/2022 15:20

Topgub · 01/11/2022 15:14

@AMorningstar

Awww.

Diddums. Are you annoyed?

Tough shit lol. Not my problem you can't open with people having a different opinion to you to the point you're actually scared of it.

There's plenty evidence that social norms are conditioned. Tons. That's why they change.

What was acceptable 50 years ago isn't now.

If social norms were biological only they wouldn't change.

Women have always worked, men have too.
However it's only the rise in consumerism that has driven the variable roles. People like you think it's down to policy driven by academic authors selling books on feminist abstract theory.
Complete and utter fallacy.

Topgub · 01/11/2022 15:20

@AMorningstar

Now now, we shouldn't kink shame 🤣

Right.

So if few people want to work, how ate men going to find women who will let them be sahds?

Topgub · 01/11/2022 15:21

@RedAppleGirl

Sorry, what?

I didnt understand a word of that.

ReneBumsWombats · 01/11/2022 15:22

However it's only the rise in consumerism that has driven the variable roles.

I hear that a few things have been getting a bit pricier lately.

AMorningstar · 01/11/2022 15:23

Topgub · 01/11/2022 15:18

@AMorningstar

Then why would it annoy you?

That makes no sense.

I'm not going to apologise for having ideals. Nothing wrong with it.

I think the world would be a vastly better place if more thought like me.

🤷‍♀️

Because arrogance and narrow mindedness are annoying in anyone.