To not understand the nastiness that being a housewife provokes 2

[Alondra]

Apologies for making a second part to this thread but I feel strongly about this issue.

Topgub

Possibly because there aren't any benefits

Few countries have a government system caring about women and children. The majority of our governments don't care if all have to work for a pittance to pay mortgage, bills and food when children are small because average couples need both wages. A system where nursery fees are stratospheric and eating half an average wage, and worse still, because parents working full time, making an average pay to be able to survive, have few serious tax concessions. Those tax concessions go to multinationals.

It's a system that only cares about productivity attached to $. If you are an engineer with projects worth a million dollars, your salary will be minimum 15% of that money annually. If you are a carer or a parent, there is no quoted money attached to your work, so you are in a low wage or no wage at all.

A woman with two kids working full time for an average salary has not gained much from my mother’s time. Working full time, taking care of the kids when they are home and doing the lion share of housework and rarely free time at all.

With housing costs, bills and health systems collapsing, I really fear for women in the next few years. We will get the short straw as we've always done, but it'll be a plus if, at least, we don't turn on each other.

100%

I so agree with your view that many people do enjoy work! Not every minute of every hour maybe but on balance..I missed work on maternity leave, I missed adult conversations, I missed the sense of achievement, I missed the camraderie, I missed getting out and about without needing to take the kitchen sink and worry about all the faff, missed a hot coffee and having time to drink it, missed cash for frivolous things, missed nice lunches and drinks, hated housework, hated feeling my brain turning to mush through lack of stimulation, hated mum conversations revolving around poo and milestones when I was up to my neck in that (I wanted to talk current affairs, travel, anything else ha!) , missed dressing up for work, missed feeling like my own person. I love my son so much and love helping him grow and develop..but I missed my work identify and that was a big part of me going back at 7 months and handing over to my husband on SPL and also choosing to stay full time at work... But that's just me and I'm happy I made the right decision for me and my son..it wouldn't be right for everyone. If I hated work perhaps I would feel differently. But I think since I had my child later in life working had always been my normal, if I hated my job I simply would find a new one not leave my career entirely..don't think it's as simple that people decide to SAHP due to hating their job..

If I won the Euromillions I would probably give up my job and travel the world..but then I'd come back and start my own business/charities with some of the proceeds!

@AMorningstar

The first one is a blog opinion piece on the fact that, gasp, shock horror, some sexist attitudes havent gone away.

It says nothing about the majority of people hating work. Or the majority of women secretly wishing the could be sahms

Got anything else?

Yeah thats not what it says lol.

Did you even read it?

A high number wanted a career that they would enjoy in which they could make a difference to society, but they are also pragmatic and understand the importance of job security and pay.

So again. Does not back up your claim that no one wants to work

And says nothing about social conditioning

Feel their on the childcare costs and schedule conflicts..have to be almost militant about it, and share the knocks for illnesses etc. He sounds like an awesome dad and great he didn't have any crappy judgements from other parents! We hear so many dead beat dad stories on here where the dad takes on a kind of 1950s bring me my pipe and slippers wifey kind of role and refuses to do any parenting because they work.. I think more men being more actively involved as parents could only be a good think to reverse that thinking. This could mean more part time roles for men (and women) more encouragement to take shared parental leave and remove the 2 year barrier. If more women do choose to work in the future, there will be less facilitation of men's careers, so childcare standards and costs, flexible working will be forced to improve as demand increases..however we shouldn't lose the option for anyone who wants to SAHP.

I didn't claim everyone hates work fgs.
I stated the, implication on Mumsnet that men go to work to be captains of the world is not true. Dp role is in construction, this career has high levels of substance abuse, depression and suicide, long hrs, heavy back breaking work. Remuneration is good, benefits are non existent. He's also first class double degree educated and is now mainly hands off.
My role is great, warm office, WFH, benefits, car, gym membership, bonus, strong pay, work events, HR support.
When I click off I'm done, I have very little liability.

Yes I can see why Sahd is preferred.👍😂

Yes, I did. I didn't say it says no one wants to work..I'm posting multiple things that altogether make up a picture. Girls also have it pushed on us nowadays that we have to have a career so it's quite shocking that despite this push, most don't want leadership or high profile positions, wouldn't you say?

news.gallup.com/opinion/chairman/212045/world-broken-workplace.aspx?g_source=position1&g_medium=related&g_campaign=tiles

Only 15% of people actually enjoy their work.

I can post several things but you'll just claim any difference in the genders is a result of social conditioning, any woman who says she doesn't enjoy work or wants to SAH has internalised misogyny, is a tradwife etc so it feels futile. I'm happy to post multiple sources but I don't feel you're asking in good faith in all honesty.

This is filtered through your own bias. Why do you view achievements as purely career oriented? Why do you think you can't achieve things outside of a career?

I'm an artist and I exhibit my work, for example. Do you think SAHM don't have lives outside of "breeding"? Because that's horribly misogynistic in itself.

It's also incredibly arrogant to feel sad for people who have different life priorities to you. I suppose though I feel a bit sorry for kids who's parents put them in childcare from the beginning so perhaps some level of pity for those who don't find happiness where you do is natural, idk.

@AMorningstar

No.

Go on post them.

I'm really interested in the ones that say social conditioning doesn't exist.

(The article didn't say they didn't want to be leaders. It said they didn't want to emulate the leadership styles they currently see. Not the same thing as not wanting to be leaders themselves)

That link talks about being engaged with management styles?

Not whether everyone hates working

If the evidence is on your side as you claim, I shouldn't be able to refute it.

It states 85% of people are unhappy with work.

Genuinely: are you asking for sources in good faith? And what source would satisfy you because you're going to claim absolutely everything is down to social conditioning rather than any sort of natural difference.

states 85% of people are unhappy with work.

Not that I saw?

it said people werent engaged but this was the fault of management styles which could he changed. It didnt say 85% would quit if they could.

Post something that proves social conditioning has no impact then. Post your evidence that people are biologically programmed to enforce gender stereotypes

Should be easy enough

Yep I agree again! My mum was a stay at home parent but she wanted more for me, my background is working class..her situation wasn't great due to the choice she had to make because it was just expected once you had kids you stayed at home. Now I am in a professional career at a senior level (not too dissimilar to engineering-congrats to your daughter! ) and I am financially secure..if my husband ever leaves or treats me poorly, I can support myself and my son on my own, I will (hopefully!) have a full pension and have options for future promotion and a more comfortable retirement..can't see anything not to love about that..however I can also see that not everyone will have had access to the same opportunities and therefore they might not have as much variety of choice, just like my mum didn't. Also it is still hard, being a parent doesn't just stop even when you are at work! There is lots of juggling. But I wouldn't change it and I know when my kids fly the nest I will have my career to fall back on and a life of my own with the funds to hopefully assist my kids into the future when life seems to be getting harder to get a house, education etc!

Even if I post something about babies, you'll argue that conditioning happens so early that it could still be a result of that. There's absolutely no pleasing you. I and others have posted things before but your view is ideological rather than pragmatic.

@AMorningstar

My view shouldn't affect the evidence?

If it exists, post it.

You said you were confident you were right and I was absolutely wrong.

So. Show me the evidence proving me wrong.

This thread is a bin fire. SO much wilful misunderstanding!

This thread is beyond mental.

TopGub please just get over the fact that some women prefer to be SAHMs, Just get over it please. There is nothing you can do about it and nobody cares. All this haranguing for days on end about the fact someone is happy with her life is insane. Enough already! Go out and touch some grass or something. You'll make yourself demented.

Weird how you won't answer whether you're asking in good faith.

@the1950sringringring

You care.

Take your own advice and stop caring about what I do or don't do.

And stop bloody name changing every 2 days and posting the same shit.

The fact you keep ignoring what I've actually said and post this weird shit about me obsessing about sahms is utterly bizarre

@AMorningstar

I've not answered because youre not asking in good faith.

You're only using it as a get out clause.

Pointing out obvious flaws in your non evidence does not mean I wouldnt accept proper evidence on good faith. I would.

So let's see it.

Being an artist is a career as well...isn't it?? Hobbies are also an achievement so yes agree as I have hobbies too. Work and money is not the only measure of success agreed..what are your measures of success?

Please please don't feel sorry for my son who has been in first nursery since 9 months and then pre school and does breakfast and after school club. If he doesn't go then he asks to go as he misses his friends! He loves it. He is very social and knows no different. My mum was a stay at home mum with me, whilst it was nice I probably would have rather spent the time with my friends, and a lot of it she was doing jobs around the house anyway. I still do homework with my son, he does a lot of extra curricular activities and we do crafts, it's just done at weekends and evenings and I delegate the cleaning to a cleaner. He is keeping up nicely with his friends including the ones with stay at home parents.. So why do you feel sorry for my son for being in childcare from an early exactly? 🤔