Honesty or politeness?

[Thistledew]

AIBU to think that exceptional politeness is not actually an admirable personality trait, that it inhibits the making of meaningful connections, and that a reasonable dose of honesty does not amount to rudeness and insensitivity?

MIL is someone who is always polite, helpful and a people pleaser. Well, at least to peoples faces. Behind their backs she is gossipy, scathing and unbending in her negative impressions of people. She finds me rude, because I will speak honestly and have a tendency to bluntness. But what you see is what you get. I have an absolute rule that I never say anything about anyone behind their backs that I would not say to their face.

The latest thing that I have done to upset MIL, whom I have known now for nearly 15 years, was to be less than effusive over her new house. She has bought and recently done a full renovation of a lovely 1930s bungalow, which I have just seen for the first time since she did the work on it. She asked me if I like what she has done. Unfortunately, I don’t. It’s not horrendously objectionable, but I just don’t think it works and actually found it quite an uncomfortable space. It is full of original features such as dado rails and ceiling panels, but she has painted everything pure white (with a pure white bathroom and kitchen too). It made me quite uncomfortable - it was grey and gloomy with the lights off and glaring and clinical with them on.

She asked if I liked it- I said something about it being a lot smarter than when she bought it and it being great that she could decorate it to her taste, but that on a rainy day (which it was that day) pure white decor can be tricky as it will seem a bit grey.

Later, I heard her complain to DH that “it wouldn’t hurt to just be polite” and that I had been rude.

Should I have just smiled and said that it was lovely? It makes me feel uncomfortable to be insincere in that way, but maybe it’s the done thing. I would never actually tell her that I think it’s bad, but I don’t see the point either of pretending that I think something is great when I don’t. Maybe everyone else does and I am just rude as MIL thinks.

Yes rude

“Okay, so don’t. But don’t be surprised when everyone thinks you’re a bitch and nobody wants to hang out with you. It doesn’t make you a better person, it makes you a poorer one.”

I don’t think I’m a better person. I recognise that I’m flawed and imperfect, but we all are in our own way. But I really don’t want to be friends with the “everyone” who thinks that just because someone thinks and acts a little differently to what they judge to be the gold standard that they are a “bitch” that no-one should hang out with. I find people like this to be as rude and unpleasant as they judge me to be.

Ok, you don’t have to be my friend if you find my way of being uncomfortable, but don’t bask in any glow of superiority if you make me a pariah for it.

You could have said it's nice and bright, fresh/clean looking or very you (mil). You don't have to say you hate it just to be true to yourself. Diplomacy is a path that will ease your life rather than pissing people off with your honesty

You've posted a thread called 'Honesty or Politeness'... but you really don't seem to want to hear peoples honest opinions.

Have you had a bad weekend or something as it sounds like you're just looking for an argument?

I want to hear them, and have taken a lot of views on board. It is helping me understand my interaction with MIL.

That doesn’t mean I have to accept everything that everyone has said or to throw myself on a fire of self-mortification because other people see the world differently to me.

Have you taken on board anything about why some people find the requirement to self-censor to be uncomfortable, superficial and a hindrance to genuine connection?

I may not be all right, but I’m not all wrong either.

There’s a time and a place. Your comment about tricky to get right in some lighting is fine if it’s before the renovation eg you are in shop and she says white or cream paint what do you think. But after it’s been done she’s not doing to re do it.
If you struggle to pick up on nuance of situation and can’t gauge I’d just stick to none offensive phrases.

I find your relentless repetition of the words 'self censor' intriguing. I'm almost certain most people don't see it that way. Being diplomatic or tactful comes to my mind, rather than self censoring. Maybe some people find this much easier than others.

I have to say - I've found it be almost always the case that people who pride themselves on 'telling it how it is' cannot take it when they get a dose of complete honesty. It may be easy to dish it out - but can you take it?

It totally depends on the context/question. If a really close friend asks me my opinion about politics etc, I'll be completely honest. Not necessarily if an acquaintance asks, though. If a friend has just had a drastic haircut which doesn't suit her and she's already feeling regrets, I'm not going to be brutal - I'll say something encouraging (not gushing though) and possibly a year later, say 'I think your hair now actually suits you better than when you had that mohican last year!'

It's the old 'do as you would be done by', surely, and recognising when something doesn't really matter enough to hurt someone's self-esteem.

I'm a pragmatist - I think more cruel things are done 'on principle' and try to have as few rigid principles as possible.

Why should it be my job to do the emotional labour of figuring out that she didn’t actually mean to ask a question and wasn’t interested in my answer?

Because you maintain you want a meaningful relationship with her. That requires putting in the “emotional labour” to understand her communication style and adjust yours according. It’s not all about you. Relationships and communication are two way streets.

Socially, I'm inept as fuck and dislike my MIL but even I can see you've basically hurt your MIL's feelings and then made it all about you

I hate the "be kind" schlock trotted out (especially to women) and value honesty myself, but on the other hand I don't like hurting peoples feelings. I have a strategy for things like this. People generally fall into two categories for me - people whose opinion I value and I would genuinely want their opinion if I ask them a question, and then other people whose opinion I don't really give a fuck about. I then treat them accordingly.

Example.

Group one. Best friend - I value her opinion and would like her to be honest with me. So "I love how bright it is, but do you find it looks cold in certain lights?" Honest and interesting discussion follows. Result.

Group Two.People like in-laws whose opinion I don't really care about myself - I don't see the need to give them my own honest opinion so find something nice to say and stop there. "I love how bright it is". Then stop (even if you have to make an effort). You've given them your honest feedback and you've not hurt their feelings. Result.

You generally know category they fall into, and if they're strangers, stick with the second strategy.

You just have to get into the habit. As I get older, more and more people fall into the second category

These 'non answers' are the oil that makes society function harmoniously.

Something along the lines of 'gosh, this looks really different MIL, you've been busy!' Then pick something you do like and compliment that- 'That's a lovely sofa, where did you get that from?' Then move on. It's not untruthful.

The fact she wants your opinion is a compliment. You might be sad if she didn't give two hoots what you thought.

The fact is, unintentionally, you hurt her feelings. You obviously didn't mean to. And it doesn't mean you have to be 'fake' next time- but acknowledging that other people can be more/less sensitive is a good thing.

The way my brother speaks to me is a lot different to the way my MIL speaks to me. And that is the same for everyone. The truth is, every single person, presents different facets of themselves to different people, even you.

It’s a bit like when little kids show you artwork they’ve done, all full of pride and excitement, you don’t say ‘well that cow doesn’t look very good and you’ve just scribbled that colour’. Equally you’re not meant to say ‘oh WOW that’s AMAZING!!’ because it comes across as insincere, and anyway they weren’t asking you to pass judgment on it. There’s a middle ground, where you can just join them in their enjoyment and pride of their work, and say something excitedly like ‘Oh look at those animals! And you’ve done them in rainbow colours! Which bit was the most fun to do?!’

Not that I’m saying your MIL is a child, but honestly quite often people just want others to share in their excitement about something, and you can do that with genuine sincerity if you actually like someone, without having to ‘lie’ and say ‘I adore what you’ve done with it!’

Your MIL was just excited about her new house and the work she’d done. She wasn’t actually asking for a critique of it. I can see that ‘what do you think!?’ might sounds like she was, but it was her way of saying ‘Look at all this work I’ve done, isn’t it exciting and can you join me in being happy and pleased about it?!’

I agree with this. Not giving your opinion at every turn is not 'self-censorship'. I'm not self-censoring when I turn down a helping of salad or cake with 'No thank you, I'm not fond of tomatoes' or 'I'm trying to cut down on my cake intake', even if actually I think the salad looks wilted and the cake looks dry. Similarly, if a friend holds out their young baby to me and says 'Isn't she lovely?', I'm not self-censoring if I say 'yes, so precious and such cute little fingers and toes' rather than 'actually, she's rather ugly and unfortunately looks like she's going to take after her dad'.

There are lots of situations where giving an honest opinion is less important than not hurting other people's feelings. Because your opinion actually doesn't matter in the particular context. What matters is the relationship between you and the person you're speaking to, and supporting that relationship with kindness and consideration.

MIL is someone who is always polite, helpful and a people pleaser. Well, at least to peoples faces. Behind their backs she is gossipy, scathing and unbending in her negative impressions of people. She finds me rude, because I will speak honestly and have a tendency to bluntness. But what you see is what you get. I have an absolute rule that I never say anything about anyone behind their backs that I would not say to their face.

Surely the above is talking behind her back ....... would you really say the above to her face. You are socially inept in addition to rude.

As a general rule of thumb, if someone is asking me about something that’s already done - then, I’ll try to work to the principal of “If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all”.
That applies to stuff like house redecorating, new haircut, party outfit when they’re already at the party, baby’s name after they’ve registered the birth and so on.

Nothing’s going to be gained by being brutally honest. Or even by being mildly critical. The decision’s already been made, they’ve already committed themselves to it, and in most cases, it can’t be changed without effort and expense.
So in that kind of scenario, if I can’t avoid the topic altogether, I’ll focus on something positive to say. Talk about how it’s much smarter than it was before the decorating, and then stop there.

I think you've just misunderstood societal norms. Must make functioning day to day quite an ordeal?

When someone asks you how you are, it's just a tag. You don't reply honestly. You say "fine".

Similarly when someone asks you if you like their new house, you say "it's lovely". She doesn't think you're the expert and is not seeking your expert opinion on where she went wrong.

You seem to think honesty is some kind of virtue, but it's just petty nastiness which you then compound by discussing it with other people to confirm to yourself you are right.

HTH

This is a great way of putting it.

Your comment :
That’s my trouble. I don’t. I take people literally. She asked a question, I answered. Why should it be my job to do the emotional labour of figuring out that she didn’t actually mean to ask a question and wasn’t interested in my answer?

is rather negated by your post at 9:19 in which you say you wouldn't have made negative comments in someone else's house. So clearly you do know how politeness and normal social conventions work, but are choosing not to implement that when talking to your MiL

The title of your thread is honesty v politeness, firstly as others have pointed out they are not opposites. Secondly, 'honesty' equals the 'truth' but your are not stating the 'truth' in your example, you are stating your opinion and opinion isn't 'truth' so you can dress it up as virtuous but are you really just justifying being hurtful?

Absolutely this. Same as when people say "I don't want to be rude" they always are

Something is bugging me, and I’m genuinely open to the answers to this question going either way -

Those of you who consider that making any sort of negative comment at all is rude - could you ask your male partner/father/co-worker what they might have said in this scenario?

Oh for Christ’s sake. Sex isn’t the issue here.

You are rude. Accept it, work on it, move on.

No, he’s in bed asleep. That said he’s a very polite person so he wouldn’t be saying rude things about my parents’ decor to them.

All this dressing this up and over analysing.

you don’t like her, you burst her bubble. On purpose, as you don’t like her. Go you.

As a general rule of thumb, if someone is asking me about something that’s already done - then, I’ll try to work to the principal of “If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all”.
That applies to stuff like house redecorating, new haircut, party outfit when they’re already at the party, baby’s name after they’ve registered the birth and so on. Nothing’s going to be gained by being brutally honest. Or even by being mildly critical. The decision’s already been made, they’ve already committed themselves to it, and in most cases, it can’t be changed without effort and expense

This exactly.

Are you from Birmingham?