To think it's not impossible that ds could become a barrister?

[coffeerevelsrule]

I am shamelessly posting here for traffic to try and get some advice for ds1 as I don't know about this to advise him properly.

He is currently in Y11 and predicted all 8s and 9s. He is incredibly driven and focused and has done tons of research into degrees and careers. He has come to the conclusion that he'd like to be a barrister - he's certain at the moment he would not want to be a solicitor. However, his research has led him to believe that unless he does law at Oxbridge he stands next to no chance of securing a pupillage, and that even if he does this will still not guarantee a career as a barrister. He is quoting all sorts of scary stats and basically thinks that without connections and Oxbridge he'll have no chance. He's also concerned that it'll be a 'beggars can't be choosers' scenario and he'll end up helping some corporation pay less tax and/or screw over their employees, which he wouldn't want to do. He wants to go into human rights but has realised this doesn't pay well, which, despite his principles, puts him off.

My opinion is that he is extremely bright and also has other qualities that will make him desirable, such as the aforementioned drive and focus, and that he is likely to get an excellent degree from an excellent university (maybe Oxbridge, maybe not) and that that degree will lead him to some kind of excellent career that he may not even be aware exists at the moment. He's not happy with this response.

Does anyone have any advice and/or experience of people from 'ordinary' backgrounds making it as a barrister and/or people with law degrees having a worthwhile career in another sector? I'm all talked out about this at the moment!

It is worth posting this in the higher education topic as well as there are several mumsnetters who will be able to advise.

Well it's easy to be a barrister, they're self employed. I know 3, they don't have problems getting work.

None of them were Oxbridge, though 2 went to other good unis (Durham/st Andrews)

I think you generally need a good uni but not oxbridge. To be honest it makes me laugh when people say how bright and driven their DC are and then ask for information on their behalf that a bright, driven person would be able to find in about 5 minutes by googling chambers websites and LinkedIn.

I was top of my class at a red brick law school.

Year before me. National mooting champion. First class degree. Did the BPTC and graduated near top. Didn’t get an inn at court.

I was told not to bother trying to be a barrister because not only is it dog eat dog, it’s about who you know and where you went to school.

Do you - or any of his family - know anyone who could give him a mini pupillage leg up?

Imagine it isn’t what you wanted to read - but it’s the truth from my experience (graduated 2017).

I'm an ex solicitor. Not all barristers are Oxbridge, but it is a highly competitive environment. He would be well advised to thoroughly research what the job involves, seek work experience placements, mini pupillages etc. Mooting is a good way to get a feel for it, and good fun too.

Being a barrister is a totally different job from being a solicitor, but that said there are solicitor roles where you can gain higher rights of audience and get involved in advocacy. He could think about these options too.

This is a helpful video
m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs-UEqJ85KE

However, his research has led him to believe that unless he does law at Oxbridge he stands next to no chance of securing a pupillage, and that even if he does this will still not guarantee a career as a barrister.

A friend’s sister has just been called to the bar after having secured a pupillage with a law degree from Liverpool. She is both clever and driven from an ‘ordinary’ though quite comfortable background. So its possible though I don’t know any further details.

30 years ago I was working in a centre for stressed young single mums having a bit of a hard time. One of them was 17 years old with a one year old and a couple of GCSEs. She wanted to be a lawyer and, frankly, I thought it unlikely that would happen but kept that to myself, of course. Remembered her a few weeks ago and googled her to see if she had an online presence. She's a QC. How impressive! I was thrilled to see that. All best wishes to your son.

Someone I know is now a millionaire barrister and did not go to Oxbridge - got a First at uni (not law), did an internship & then got a training contract to qualify as a solicitor in a Magic Circle law firm then transitioned to the Bar. Throughout the whole thing, he excelled at both study and his work, has networked furiously and as a result of those two things has done extremely well in his career. Very possible, as with most things in life who you know can certainly help and the rest is down to being extremely good at what you do.

I think internships and connections will be very valuable, so if you know anyone who's a barrister, ask them for advice and possibly work experience. Otherwise, get networking :)

I know 3 barristers. All privately educated, oxbridge undergrad or postgrad, and connected. Despite that they all started their careers in private practice before getting a pupilage.

I’m sure it’s not impossible but it seems hugely competitive and I expect connections do matter.

FYI I was a magic circle solicitor and am now a civil servant doing a job that I wouldn't have known existed when I was at school - in fact, I didn't know this job existed until I applied for it!

The status quo in this country will never change until we move away from all this Oxbridge nonsense. There are plenty of educated, talented and motivated people who will do well regardless of uni choice.

Interesting fun fact, about judges not barristers, but still interesting imo!

Only 7% of children in the UK are privately educated, but 75% of judges have been to private school.

So it's a hard road for 'normal' less privileged people, especially if your DS happens to be from an ethnic minority, but not impossible.

Barristers in both England & Ireland have protested over recent years due to poor pay.

Your sons expectations are pretty close to reality. It is difficult to get consistent work as a self employed BL without good connections, not impossible. BLs are at the mercy of law firms, and he will need to play a very political game to ensure he creates lucrative contacts.

If he goes in-house, he will be paid a salary and payrises will be linked to longevity and experience etc. He could go into Funds, M&A, Software/IP law. I personally think without a network of boys club contacts, he would be better off considering what industry he might enjoy working in. For example chip design and everything connected to Software design is lucrative.

Law is not the highest paid department in any company, lawyers tend to work very hard to justify their expense, they are a drain on each company and are not revenue generating. Other departments can pay more. Sometimes the less lofty aspirations actually pay more.

I know 2 barristers neither went to Oxbridge. One (a relative) is extremely well connected and I think got her pupillage through that, though she is undoubtedly able.

The other one I met through my Saturday job years ago. She was absolutely ruthless and determined to get there despite coming from an immigrant background. She is very extravert and a real ‘character’.

Its not impossible but you need to make the right connections and have the personality to charm and impress people.

Sure the DC could have googled but OP was asking if anyone had any PERSONAL experience in this field, which is not the same as googling information

This isn't what you want to hear. I left my job as a solicitor a few years ago but I still remember a conversation I had with a barrister during a day of mediation not long before I left. She was on the interview panel for her chambers and had a day of interviews later that week. She said that the candidates they had lined up were almost intimidating and she wouldn't get an interview let alone a pupilage if she was applying these days. It's not just that most were from Oxbridge, it's the experience they all managed to get to bolster their CV. Every single interviewee had done work experience somewhere prestigious overseas. It's a few years ago now but two examples I remember were the European Court of Human Rights and with Congress in Washington. It was a good set of chambers in London but not one of the top chambers. I've just looked her up and she's a KC now. She was very very talented when I worked with her so it's depressing to think she's only there because it wasn't quite so competitive when she started.

Firstly, I know plenty of barristers who didn’t go to Oxbridge. Secondly I know quite a few barristers who don’t have a law degree- did a post grad law conversion course, then bar school.

I’m not sure what he means about “beggars can’t be choosers” as corporate litigation/ tax is probably one of the more competitive areas to get a pupillage in. It’s not an area you end up in if you don’t get human rights, although he’s right, that and criminal law don’t pay v well. I have a friend who does family law- mainly med neg ( not an ambulance chaser)- and enjoys it but it’s steady and rewarding vs. exciting.

He’s right that to get a tenancy is quite a wide funnel- not all those who pass bar exams get a pupillage and not all those that get a pupillage get a tenancy.

What exactly is it that attracts him about the bar vs being a solicitor?

Of course it’s possible, although not easy.

www.barcouncil.org.uk/becoming-a-barrister/school-students/bar-placement-scheme.html

There are lots of schemes aimed at making the Bar more accessible and diverse. He should apply for the Bar Placement Scheme in sixth form (see the link) and maybe look at this as well smartlaw.org.uk/mock-trials/bar-mock-trials-teachers-2/

He doesn’t need to decide on whether to become a barrister or a solicitor until he’s finished his degree. I’d encourage him to keep an open mind and try to get work experience for both. At 16 he’s unlikely to have a realistic view of the differences between the professions.

I come from a background of law and lawyers and know lots of barristers - only one of them is Oxbridge.

They're a mixed bag - one I know retrained in his 40's, and most are pretty unexceptional backgrounds. They all seem to do pretty well and attract the work they need to.

The old boys network is alive and kicking, but I honestly think the bar is accessible these days for most people if they want a crack at it.

I was a barrister in London for 15 years before giving it up a few years back. Normal state secondary school, and definitely no family connections. It was hard, and the competition was ruthless (which will still be the case now no doubt), but, as with anything, if you want it enough you should go for it.

I do think it's important to have very realistic expectations though, and prepare to be flexible if it doesn't work out.

Good luck to him.

I'm a barrister. I went to a comprehensive and had no legal connections. I applied to Oxford (and was lucky enough to get in) because like your son, I thought I had no chance of succeeding as a barrister if I didn't go to Oxbridge. I had 10 A*s at GCSE, 4 As at A level and, 25 years ago, I think I was right. It is much better now, but although many chambers (including mine) recruit university blind, there are still an awful lot of Oxbridge graduates (and private school alumni) in the profession. However, you absolutely can make it from an "ordinary" background and from a non Oxbridge university.

On your son's other questions, there are loads of different areas of law and you absolutely don't have to do corporate stuff. Different chambers have different focuses and different political positions so although the cab rank rule exists many places will have barristers who in practice only act for one "side". It is worth noting what's going on in criminal law at the moment though- it's chronically underfunded and people are working extremely hard for what can work out as less than the minimum wage.

If he's really set on it, I'd say go for it. It is very hard work, but in my areas, also very well paid and when it's going well, it's the best job in the world for me. And I can honestly count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've felt that I'm being put down for my background or lack of connections - in over 20 years of practice.

His research is wrong I'm afraid, I know plenty barristers who have stymied at various university's up and down the country and completed their BPTC at various providers. The main setback with succeeding to become a barrister is gaining as much experience as you can within chambers completed mini pupillage's, shadowing judges etc.

YANBU and it's really good that he's going into this with his eyes open (if slightly pessimistic) so he doesn't finish uni and get a shock. I know a girl who was on my undergrad course (a BA similar to philosophy) at York who did the conversion course to become a barrister and one of my relatives did a law degree at an ex-poly and never got a pupillage so used it in the public sector instead. I don't know anyone who has actually "made it" in any area of law who didn't have a lot of money/connections behind them because of the amount they don't pay when you're starting out means you need a lot of parental support both emotionally and financially. Are there any other careers he would enjoy that might pay better/offer more stability?

Studied not stymied 😂😂

I work in public law/human rights and a lot of the barristers we instruct don't have LLBs let alone went to Oxbridge.
Might be worth looking at the barristers list of local chambers so see where they all went. have a look at this chambers