To think it's not impossible that ds could become a barrister?

[coffeerevelsrule]

I am shamelessly posting here for traffic to try and get some advice for ds1 as I don't know about this to advise him properly.

He is currently in Y11 and predicted all 8s and 9s. He is incredibly driven and focused and has done tons of research into degrees and careers. He has come to the conclusion that he'd like to be a barrister - he's certain at the moment he would not want to be a solicitor. However, his research has led him to believe that unless he does law at Oxbridge he stands next to no chance of securing a pupillage, and that even if he does this will still not guarantee a career as a barrister. He is quoting all sorts of scary stats and basically thinks that without connections and Oxbridge he'll have no chance. He's also concerned that it'll be a 'beggars can't be choosers' scenario and he'll end up helping some corporation pay less tax and/or screw over their employees, which he wouldn't want to do. He wants to go into human rights but has realised this doesn't pay well, which, despite his principles, puts him off.

My opinion is that he is extremely bright and also has other qualities that will make him desirable, such as the aforementioned drive and focus, and that he is likely to get an excellent degree from an excellent university (maybe Oxbridge, maybe not) and that that degree will lead him to some kind of excellent career that he may not even be aware exists at the moment. He's not happy with this response.

Does anyone have any advice and/or experience of people from 'ordinary' backgrounds making it as a barrister and/or people with law degrees having a worthwhile career in another sector? I'm all talked out about this at the moment!

His research needs to be more extensive- plenty of information out there about how applications by chambers are now blind and inclusivity and diversity are being slowly welcomed by the Bar. Very much not Oxbridge focused anymore. It seems from the post that doing work experience would be helpful- both in a solicitors’ firm and at chambers. How does he know he doesn’t want to be a solicitor unless it is rooted in evidence? Evidence is the most important part for any aspiring lawyers. It also seems confused about the areas of law- sampling a few different areas, visiting courts (which are open) and trying to get other connected experience would help here. Human Rights is not its own discrete area of law. He needs to research more on what barristers actually do- the example you have given in advising companies is much more likely advice given by a solicitor. Barristers have to take cases based on what comes along within their competence, so no declining cases on the basis that you don’t fancy helping a corporation. Ultimately, being a barrister is a service provision- so the implications of that and the reality of self employed need to be carefully thought about.

Oxbridge isn't essential but a good Oxbridge degree is always a help.

The Bar is surprisingly diverse (and becoming more Diverse). There is a huge difference between (for example) the work of someone doing high value commercial work in London and someone doing family work in a local court. I know of some barristers who make huge amounts doing 'below-the-radar' road accident claims (£250 x 10 15-minute hearings a day x 5 days a week) and others who are quite badly paid for criminal defending on legal aid. There are barristers who are in court all day every day and others who spend all their time advising and writing opinions and don't go to court from one year to the next.

Being a barrister is a very strange life, but can be addictive. It's not all defending murder suspects at the Old Bailey like oin the Telly - Defending The Guilty on iPlayer is the closest thing to real life that I have seen.

I used to be a law lecturer, and, following my students after they graduated, a lot who wanted to be barristers didn't get there in the end, but many did. As far as I know, none are (yet) KCs, but quite a few have become judges. Most didn't have Oxbridge degrees.

I was thinking the same thing at about 15.

I went from a bog standard comprehensive, to a sixth form college to Oxford.

I then wasn't sure whether I wanted to do law at all for a bit - what was most prominent in careers type stuff was commercial law which I didn't find interesting.

Having decided I wanted to do law, but not that sort of law I then took the Legal Practice Course (then the vocational course for solicitors) part time over two years. Shortly after that I fell into a niche area.

Between 15 and 22 ish, I'd decided I didn't want to be a barrister - I didn't want to be self employed (though I've changed my mind about that again as I now effectively work for myself), I didn't want to specialise in the restricted area of work that barristers specialise in - advocacy and advice (now there's so much direct access to barristers the distinctions are perhaps less important than they were 20 ish years ago) and the costs were prohibitive - the Bar Vocational Course (now renamed as something else) was more expensive than the LPC and I don't think anybody offered it part time. I don't remember if pupillages were funded then, but they were very competitive and I didn't think I stood a good chance of getting one. And there was then the prospect of doing work and not getting paid for it for ages, "aged debt".

Many people go to the Bar with masters degrees / doctorates / experience in other areas first. I think being a solicitor is a better 'all rounder' option - you can transfer to the Bar as a qualified solicitor and by that point you're likely to have your own client following that makes it less risky.

It's worth him reading #LegalTwitter - seeing people talk about "Sunday homework club" and the other pressures the job brings - self employed people don't like turning work away, even when they're busy - it can be difficult to take holidays/to switch off from work.

Mainly, my advice now is that he doesn't need to make a decision about any of this now - keeping your options open is something lawyers quite often advise their clients about. He can focus on doing well in his GCSEs. Part time employment/voluntary work isn't a bad idea [demonstrates time management skills and possibly more]. Going to some university open days next summer (post GCSEs) isn't a bad plan. Checking out suitable combinations of A levels to take is a good plan - he wants subjects he enjoys that fit what the Russell Group think of as good subjects. Look at the offers the unis are making for law. Trying to arrange work experience with solicitors / mini-pupillages with chambers is a plan for next summer and the one after. Some chambers restrict mini-pupillages to people over 18. [work experience with sols = he'll have a better answer to "why don't you want to be a solicitor?" which chambers might ask]

He certainly doesn't need an Oxbridge law degree. Most barristers I know (some of whom did a first degree at Oxford or Cambridge but not in Law) did a conversion course at City. He can gain experience with internships or shadowing and then see about getting pupillage.

I'm going to add to the list of all the people who know barristers who didn't go to Oxbridge. A friend of mine from school did law at De Montfort uni in Leicester, and she's now a barrister. It absolutely can be done.

My DH is a barrister and part time judge. He is comprehensive school educated, went to a Russell group university, doesn’t have straight As or a first. He did a joint honours LLB degree. It isn’t easy, and I know a lot from his BVC course didn’t end up as barristers. He didn’t get a pupilage at his first attempt, but spent a year working gaining experience and was successful the next year. I would say you need to be flexible about location and type of law, we moved for his pupilage, and the area he practices in now is neither what he did during his pupilage nor what he might have envisaged when he was studying.

It’s a tough job, he works a huge number of hours, and at times deals with some upsetting things. You also need to be organised and good with money - as a self employed person you have to be careful to keep money aside for tax and VAT bills, and to deal with not having a regular income or know if and when the money will arrive for the work you do.

Good luck to him, I hope it works out

My brother has a law degree from oxford, middle class background. Hes a staff sergeant in Intelligence with an OBE at the age of 30.

FAIRE is taking place at the moment and it would be worth hom signing up, it is mainly solicitors but they have at least one barrister speaking this year.

He doesn't need law or Oxbridge to be a respectable and successful barrister, a good degree from a good uni is important but it doesn't have to be law.

Don't let him be put off I was scared off by those stats and although I am a solicitor now and enjoy my job I so wonder what might have been.

The barriers to entry are breaking down and the profession is much more accessible than it was when I was applying

Tell him to go for it. He doesn't need to go to Oxbridge to be in with a chance, but i would say connections are everything in law so if he can do any volunteering at the nearest chambers as he goes through his degree it will be invaluable. They are always happy to help proactive students who are willing to chain themselves to the photocopier for a few days, and the experience will help him know which area of law he wants to go into. Volunteering at a solicitor's firm in criminal or civil litigation departments is a good shout too! I got offered a pupillage whilst working as a PA to a divorce solicitor about 10 years ago. It wasn't the path i wanted to take but being keen, open, hard working, polite, personable and helpful will all help your son get to where he wants to be. Good luck to him!

Lots of good advice on here.

As others have said Oxbridge still dominates the Bar, but diversity is slowly improving. I got pupillary at the second attempt as a state school non-Oxbridge candidate without connections 20 odd years ago. You need to be resilient though - I could have wallpapered my room with the rejection letters along the way.

Also as others have said, he should do everything he can to get work experience to see what solicitors and barristers actually do. He/you seem to have a pretty skewed idea at the moment. Giving tax advice to corporations is some of the best paid work available to either side of the profession.

Most court rooms are open to the public. He can go along to his local one and sit quietly at the back to see law in action. That is only a small part of the work though. Even barristers in most practice areas won't be in court every day.

At 16 the best thing he can do is to make sure his academics are outstanding.

Pupillary = pupillage. (Thanks, autocarrot)

I know 8 barristers. 2 Oxbridge and years ago, rest late 30s early 40s, 2 Oxbridge and rest red brick unis. Only one went to public school. But it is very dog eat dog.

@LaurieFairyCake Unfortunately you clearly know nothing about law, so not helpful. A barrister may be self employed (but contributing to all chambers' expenses) but they can't just call themselves barristers even with a law degree and specialist training.

I need to correct @Waveacrossabay ’s false information - ALL of the pupillage year is paid. Normally minimum earnings of £40k even in provincial sets. Very outdated information. Must have been 20 years now. (Not necessarily at £40k!)

solicitor here. No need for making decisions on solicitor or barrister for a while. It’s not true you need to have gone to Oxbridge to secure a pupilage and tenancy but doubtless money and connections still help some out. The legal profession is trying to be more inclusive and look outside the higher prestige universities. That said, I’d go for a law degree from the best institution possible. Plenty of time to decide on bar school or legal practice course. No doubt about it getting a pupilage is tough as is seeing through the year earning next to nothing. The solicitor route is more secure from this point of view and I know people who switched after pupilage after not getting a secure tenancy. The stuff in the media about how difficult life is for junior criminal barristers is not made up. Read the Secret Barrister.

I was put off becoming a barrister because everyone told me you have to be white, male, and have a oxbridge 1st class degree. I have two of the four requirements so became a solicitor instead.

As my career progressed I started to realise that this was terrible advice: I could easily have become a barrister. I met lots of barristers who hadn’t been to oxbridge. One QC I met through work even offered to retrain me in his chambers, but I couldn’t be bothered to change track by that point.

Tell him to work hard and get top grades and do law at the best uni he can, and to practice public speaking at every opportunity (debating? Drama?) and he’ll be fine.

(If he wants the oxbridge stamp on his CV but doesn’t get in for his degree he could consider doing a one year Masters there afterwards.)

FYI re money some barristers earn millions of pounds a year, others struggle to make minimum wage. Be careful what to specialise in! I’d aim for commercial litigation personally.

I do wonder why people persist in spreading this “it’s all who you know” myth. I think it must be to justify their own failures to themselves 🤷‍♀️

No personal experience of law. But I have several friends with law degrees. Only one - who I've been friends with since we were 3! - is an actual lawyer. He was called to the bar (is that the right phrase?) in New York and in England & Wales but don't think he's a barrister now, is currently partner in top private law firm in London. He is from a very normal family, no private schooling, no law connections in his family. He has worked hard - finished top of his year at Edinburgh Uni, masters in law from Harvard.

The others I know are working in areas related to law rather than as solicitors or barristers - legal advisors for a university, in the navy, and as a specialist in legal information technology for a a large pharmaceutical company (this person did a second degree in IT sponsored by the company - now in a very high paid, senior role). So there are lots of places a law degree can take you.

I always wonder at that too @Unseelie - this insistence it’s all about who you know! I can’t pretend it doesn’t happen, but it most certainly is not the norm anymore.

It’s very hard to make an informed decision at his age. Why doesn’t he just try hard at a-levels, study law at the best uni he can get into and go from there. By the time he’s matured and become a bit more independent he might have a different view of things.

My brother is at oxbridge doing law right now, from my understanding of what he has told me, it's not you couldn't sit the bar but unless you have a first from oxbridge you're unlikely to get funding so it's fine if you're rich. He is doing loads of additional work outside his degree and has secured work already. He has met with a few barristers who have explained you can take different routes it's not just one path.

But I will say it's all insanely competitive. My brother was the only kid in the area to go to oxbridge so not saying it can't be done! But he will need to graft.

So, your husband went to public school and is now doing very well?
Blow me down

Well is doesn’t have to be oxbridge but it will have to be an elite uni.
But if he’s on track for excellent grades why can he apply to oxbridge at uni? Any relevant experience that would help get him into Oxbridge would also be the sort of experience he can build on in the future

It doesn’t have to be an elite uni. We’ve taken candidates from “new” unis before. I do wish people who don’t have a clue wouldn’t give advise…🤦🏻‍♀️

crosstalk

Where did I say a barrister could just call themselves one?

Are you confusing me with someone else?

I just said they didn't have to go to Oxbridge and that they worked on a self employed basis (both of which are true). And yes they do contribute to expenses.

In addition to all the excellent advice on this thread, I’d Encourage your son to get into any public speaking or debating clubs/extra curricular activities his school might offer. He will learn so much about thinking on his feet and getting his point across in an articulate way, plus any achievements at the national competitions will bolster his application to uni and gaining internship placements.