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To think it's not impossible that ds could become a barrister?

162 replies

coffeerevelsrule · 26/10/2022 15:41

I am shamelessly posting here for traffic to try and get some advice for ds1 as I don't know about this to advise him properly.

He is currently in Y11 and predicted all 8s and 9s. He is incredibly driven and focused and has done tons of research into degrees and careers. He has come to the conclusion that he'd like to be a barrister - he's certain at the moment he would not want to be a solicitor. However, his research has led him to believe that unless he does law at Oxbridge he stands next to no chance of securing a pupillage, and that even if he does this will still not guarantee a career as a barrister. He is quoting all sorts of scary stats and basically thinks that without connections and Oxbridge he'll have no chance. He's also concerned that it'll be a 'beggars can't be choosers' scenario and he'll end up helping some corporation pay less tax and/or screw over their employees, which he wouldn't want to do. He wants to go into human rights but has realised this doesn't pay well, which, despite his principles, puts him off.

My opinion is that he is extremely bright and also has other qualities that will make him desirable, such as the aforementioned drive and focus, and that he is likely to get an excellent degree from an excellent university (maybe Oxbridge, maybe not) and that that degree will lead him to some kind of excellent career that he may not even be aware exists at the moment. He's not happy with this response.

Does anyone have any advice and/or experience of people from 'ordinary' backgrounds making it as a barrister and/or people with law degrees having a worthwhile career in another sector? I'm all talked out about this at the moment!

OP posts:
BunnyBerries · 26/10/2022 19:30

I second @goldfinchonthelawn
to add that you absolutely don't need to do a law degree. You can go to a great university and achieve the best grade in your best subject. Just look at the public profiles of barristers in top sets.

It used to be until very, very recently that as you need loads of legal work experience, most places knew that everyone was desperate for it, and so offered this unpaid, which is why the richest students only could afford to do it for weeks or months on end, or that they got in solely through connections. I suspect this is not really legal now to open up that necessary work experience to a more diverse set of students.

I think you have to be someone willing to sell yourself and be proud of all you've achieved. Many do a law conversion course after their specialist degree to stand out more, and get experience with advocacy clubs and pupillages in the meantime to get connections. Get in touch with your university careers or employability service from the very first term at university and attend all the legal careers events and apply for all the volunteering and traineeship positions. Human rights however might be one of the absolute top most competitive to get into though.

Technology is also apparently becoming key in the legal sector so any experience in that could certainly give him a boost.

thecatneuterer · 26/10/2022 19:32

Around 20 years ago I had a friend who was a barrister. He was in his twenties, so by no means senior, but seemed to be doing well. He was black, working class and from Peckham. I can't remember where he studied but it wasn't Oxbridge. He was earning enough to afford to buy a lovely flat somewhere central but leafy and drove an extremely posh car (and was constantly being stopped by Police for being black in charge of an expensive car).

Greengagesnfennel · 26/10/2022 19:36

Keir starmer, head of the labour party. Barrister, son of a nurse and a toolmaker. Became head of crown prosecution service.
Are you a troll supporter of the labour party op?

Greengagesnfennel · 26/10/2022 19:38

Greengagesnfennel · 26/10/2022 19:36

Keir starmer, head of the labour party. Barrister, son of a nurse and a toolmaker. Became head of crown prosecution service.
Are you a troll supporter of the labour party op?

Just looked him up en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keir_Starmer went to university of Leeds not oxbridge too.

SlipperyDippery · 26/10/2022 19:42

Your son sounds a bit naive with the stuff about human rights. As a lawyer you have to represent your client regardless if you are sympathetic to them or not. Perhaps law is not for him

exactly this. The essence of being a barrister is you fearlessly represent your client whatever your personal views.

I expect it’s teenage naivety which is understandable so doesn’t mean that he can’t still be a good lawyer but please manage his expectations in this regard. You cannot be a barrister and only represent good people.

SuperGinger · 26/10/2022 19:46

What area of law is he looking at? To be in a top set, not criminal, you need to be very focused and most are Oxford/Cambridge. State school not an issue but doing mini pupillages and being involved in university debating etc all good, casting his net wide is important. It is competitive but the recruitment process is very fair and many top sets are interested in diversity.

Basecamp · 26/10/2022 19:53

Friend of mine from uni is a successful barrister. We went to a very middle of the road uni, albeit one with a good law school.

SuperGinger · 26/10/2022 20:00

I would never allow my DC to become barristers, it is very stressful, you have no social life in your twenties or thirties, the hours are a killer, sleeping on the floor in Chambers is not uncommon when you have a trial on. Loads of barristers end up divorced, depressed or burnt out.

Human rights is noble but if he is serious and as focused as you say, more commercial stuff would suit him better.

SuperGinger · 26/10/2022 20:06

Also as someone else mentioned you don't always get paid which is a total bugger and Chambers expenses are awful.

onemomentintime · 26/10/2022 20:12

SuperGinger · 26/10/2022 20:00

I would never allow my DC to become barristers, it is very stressful, you have no social life in your twenties or thirties, the hours are a killer, sleeping on the floor in Chambers is not uncommon when you have a trial on. Loads of barristers end up divorced, depressed or burnt out.

Human rights is noble but if he is serious and as focused as you say, more commercial stuff would suit him better.

How can you 'not allow' your DC to do something?

I know a lot of barristers in their 20s and 30s through DH as well as plenty in their 40s/40s. Most manage to have a reasonable social life, meet partners, have families etc. Yes they may have times when it's long hours but so do lots of jobs in your 20s.

Zuma76 · 26/10/2022 20:22

I was in the same position. I decided I wanted to be a barrister when I was about 12. I went to a basic state school. I discounted being a solicitor. I did well at GCSE and A level. I studied law at a good uni and did the bar course. I knew the risks but I was confident I was good enough. I didn’t get a pupillage and the interviews I did get I lost out to pupils at Oxbridge.
I do not believe it is because they went to Oxbridge but more because they were better trained though the way Oxbridge operates to handle interviews.

I ended up cross qualifying as a solicitor and it suits me much better actually. I believe that now it is unlikely that chambers select because of Oxbridge. The Bar is more diverse now. Obviously that hasn’t fed through to the judiciary but it will do.
if he is adamant he wants to do it, he has to have excellent grades, a good uni, possibly a masters, legal experience and/ or evidence that he has obtained transferable skills through other work. He should spend a lot of time getting to grips with current issues and be able to confidently debate and discuss issues outside his comfort zone. All applicants will have the grades. To be selected for an interview he needs something different on his CV. I believe I got my interviews due to a quirky hobby.

Winterscomingagain · 26/10/2022 20:26

My son studied law in Dundee and went into banking. He's now a vice president at 28 yrs old and wouldn't consider going back to a law career.
His friends who have proceeded with law are working colossal hours and seem to be promised a great deal in terms of future promotion ie: you'll be a director by the time you're 35. In the interim they're not earning a great deal but hopefully that will happen. I've asked him if many have become barristers and he says a few are in the process but also highlights that they were either from legal families or extremely wealthy. Ie: wealthy enough to live in London indepentedly and work as unpaid interns for top law firms during the holidays.
Perhaps he just needs to apply for law and see how things work out.

Muffintop101 · 26/10/2022 20:27

Barrister here. From state school, red brick uni late 1990s. No connections in law whatsoever. Wanted to be a barrister from age 11 and just pursued it.

As the barrister earlier up thread pointed out, chambers’ recruitment processes ignore university. That’s all blind. Most application processes only require you to certify you have met the required access standard of 2:1 in qualifying law degree / diploma, and very competent (or whatever it is now) on Bar Training Course. You don’t get through all the education and be certified as suitable to be a barrister by the Bar Trainers if you don’t meet the basic standard.

More important on Pupillage applications is what goes on the form about him. Academic experience is one thing, but we are all looking for a well rounded individual with experience of doing things. Excellent applications I have seen include people who have worked in bars during uni but have been able to explain how that work fits in with what they’re likely to be doing at the Bar (advocating to clients to do the right thing, or how to improve their lot), people who do altruistic acts (even small ones, etc) while studying, working, etc - shows care, courteousness and organisation. See also people who run scouts / sports teams, grassroots stuff, WI, just actively having an interest in something other than law. The worst applications are all just very dry legal and academic information with no personality. They do not survive the paper sift. So much more important is non- legal work experience and other life experience.

As for making connections and finding out about barrister life (it’s great and gruelling in equal measure) ask careers teacher to get a barrister to come and talk to students - contact the Inns of Court and ask them about their schools outreach stuff. Have a range of barristers come - commercial, human rights (doughty street and garden court chambers are good for that), family, criminal, chancery, court of protection, pi. They all come to talk. Or if part of an academy trust they might arrange a local careers fair and encourage barristers and others to come. If he can organise something like that, that’s do brilliantly on his CV in any career.

Year 11 is probably too young for mini pupillages. Year 13 isn’t, but he must be serious in mini pupillage- and smart. There are no stupid questions, but there are ways of behaving that we see from mini pupils that do not make a good impression. He can now, however, always go and watch barristers at work in his local criminal and county courts. They are generally personable and the court staff should introduce him to them so he can try and form some connections.

Contact local solicitors and get work experience with them - if possible, see if he can sit on on conferences with barristers. If he can do some voluntary work at a local law centre, that’s also fabulous.

XingMing · 26/10/2022 20:57

I come late to this thread and hope you are still reading OP. A friend of mine joined the Navy, at basic level, - for a few years she thought - but after a while, someone suggested she might like to consider officer training. She took it, passed it, and then someone thought she might have a good legal mind. so the navy paid for her degree, helped her find chambers for pupillage in London, and promoted her to senior prosecutor. She retired a few years ago, as a naval captain aged 55, on an indexed linked pension that is never going to be worth less than £55k annually as long as she lives.

MrsJBaptiste · 26/10/2022 21:01

SuperGinger · 26/10/2022 20:00

I would never allow my DC to become barristers, it is very stressful, you have no social life in your twenties or thirties, the hours are a killer, sleeping on the floor in Chambers is not uncommon when you have a trial on. Loads of barristers end up divorced, depressed or burnt out.

Human rights is noble but if he is serious and as focused as you say, more commercial stuff would suit him better.

Oh come on, I have friends who are barristers (and from very 'lowly' backgrounds) and they have never slept on floors, etc!

XingMing · 26/10/2022 21:02

The post above mine is probably much better advice TBH, but there are odd routes too.

SuperGinger · 26/10/2022 21:14

During a trial you have to prep over night for the next day, so it's easier just to lie down and have a quick kip on the floor than waste time going home for two hours.

And if my DC wanted to do it, of course I'd be never stop them, but I suspect they've seen enough to be put off for life.

WinniePig · 26/10/2022 21:14

Hmmmm if he wants to do human rights law then he’ll need to make himself stand out from the crowd somehow. A masters might help; also an internship at The Hague. Go to Doughty Street chambers website and check out the CVs of human rights barristers on there. From memory, Amal Clooney was an associate at a US firm before becoming a barrister.

I think Oxbridge is a definite advantage for certain areas of law. I work in trusts law and we use barristers from Wilberforce Chambers. Almost without exception, they all went to Oxbridge, got firsts and won various prizes BUT not all barristers specialise in trusts. I don’t think you need the same pedigree to be an excellent criminal barrister. I know a few and they didn’t go to Oxbridge.

reluctantlogin · 26/10/2022 21:26

Curious response. The kid is in year 11. The bar is like the medical profession - like doctors barristers can be many things.

Tearevels · 26/10/2022 21:34

I’m a barrister and neither of my parents went to university. I was the first in my family to go, had no connections and went to what is now a Russell group university. I have been a barrister for over 25 years in the same chambers. Oxbridge doesn’t necessarily mean a candidate who can deal with clients and judges

JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon · 26/10/2022 21:36

Here are the details of FAIRE, it was earlier this week but I bet you can register for next year and maybe even watch some of it back.

targetjobs.co.uk/organisations/browne-jacobson-llp/events/faire-largest-legal-profession-insight-event-uk-solicitors-barristers-house

Suggest that he tries mooting, debating and enters essay writing competitions and also does things outside of school/work that will make him stand out in terms of hobbies/sports/volunteering.

He could look at any legal related work experience opportunities, judge shadowing, volunteering with advice organisations or the support services at court or just sitting and watching proceedings in the local Crown or County Court.

He has bags of time to decide what he wants to do and find out more but this stuff will help him whatever he decides to do.

GerronBuzanDoThaWomwok · 26/10/2022 21:41

He doesn't necessarily need to read law as an undergraduate.I would suggest securing a good degree from a top university, then applying for a law conversion course and Bar finals. Or, if he does read law, just the Bar finals. He needs to secure a mini-pupillage, he should ruthlessly explore the niche area that challenges/excites him, then focus all his energies on gaining experience there.
Pre university he can watch trials in the public gallery, volunteer for CAB/community groups, shadow a barrister, research legal precedents online, engage in social media/email correspondence on points of law (provided he is able to do so convincingly).When he is a little older, there are numerous advocacy and charity routes into gaining experience, just a few to consider: free representation for nurses/social workers at fitness to practice hearings; civil rights work overseas; voluntary work in the Crown dependencies; work experience as a clerk in chambers/shadowing barristers/doing unpaid research for them.
To succeed as a barrister, your son needs to be the author, director, researcher, critic and performer of his own work.

Pearfacebanana · 26/10/2022 21:47

I know 3 barristers.
One Oxbridge.
One Leicester.
One Nottingham Trent.
Pretty mixed bag really. The Oxbridge one has gone on to be a QC. However I think he needs to understand what oxbridge really means and is that the uni experience he wants?

lakeswimmer · 26/10/2022 21:51

A relative of mine has qualified as a barrister in the last five years. She has a 1st in law from UCL and works in civil law in London. All the people she studied alongside for her bar exams had been to Oxbridge. Before deciding to train as a barrister she did a masters degree at a foreign uni and worked in the civil service fast stream programme. Parent and grandparent were both solicitors so some connections but in completely different fields of law.

Malfi · 26/10/2022 21:53

One of the people I know who is a barrister had been an actor and theatre producer before.