To think it's not impossible that ds could become a barrister?

[coffeerevelsrule]

I am shamelessly posting here for traffic to try and get some advice for ds1 as I don't know about this to advise him properly.

He is currently in Y11 and predicted all 8s and 9s. He is incredibly driven and focused and has done tons of research into degrees and careers. He has come to the conclusion that he'd like to be a barrister - he's certain at the moment he would not want to be a solicitor. However, his research has led him to believe that unless he does law at Oxbridge he stands next to no chance of securing a pupillage, and that even if he does this will still not guarantee a career as a barrister. He is quoting all sorts of scary stats and basically thinks that without connections and Oxbridge he'll have no chance. He's also concerned that it'll be a 'beggars can't be choosers' scenario and he'll end up helping some corporation pay less tax and/or screw over their employees, which he wouldn't want to do. He wants to go into human rights but has realised this doesn't pay well, which, despite his principles, puts him off.

My opinion is that he is extremely bright and also has other qualities that will make him desirable, such as the aforementioned drive and focus, and that he is likely to get an excellent degree from an excellent university (maybe Oxbridge, maybe not) and that that degree will lead him to some kind of excellent career that he may not even be aware exists at the moment. He's not happy with this response.

Does anyone have any advice and/or experience of people from 'ordinary' backgrounds making it as a barrister and/or people with law degrees having a worthwhile career in another sector? I'm all talked out about this at the moment!

Agree with pp that the “beggars can’t be choosers” comment suggests he doesn’t know much about the Bar- this is obviously totally fair enough at 16 but a good reason not to rule anything out at this stage.

Not an area I know a lot about but it's worth getting in touch with a company called Tayberry for advice - my nephew used them (he's studying law at Oxford) and they gave him and his parents a lot of support with the application and also onward planning for work experience and internships etc. They're very well known so you should be able to Google them and they'll come up

My uncle is in his 70,s,he's a KC ,( seems strange writing that ) he s defence KC and worked on some really high profile murder cases ,he went to Newcastle I think .

Lawyer here. He’s still very young. He should do his best in his school exams and get into the best uni he can. If law is his chosen path, Oxbridge or a Russell group uni will serve him well. I meet a lot of students who want to do human rights or become barristers. When you learn about law and the different careers your views change. He may decide that land law is for him. City lawyers don’t just try to help big corporations avoid tax… that’s naive. The posters above who say you can transition from solicitor to barrister are quite correct - I know of at least 5-6 through my career, and they are excellent barristers.

Whichever route he chooses (barrister or city lawyer or something else) it’s fiercely competitive. Focusing on the statistics won’t help, encourage him to focus on his studies and any work experience he can get instead. There’s little space for defeatism before he’s even started(!) There are plenty of people in the legal profession who didn’t go to private school or Oxbridge, but everyone I work with is driven and very clever - those are the qualities he’ll need.

I’d echo a previous poster - what is it that appeals about being a barrister rather than a solicitor? I’m dual qualified (as came from a jurisdiction where it is a fused bar. Only requalified as a solicitor in England).

To put it extremely basically - does he absolutely love the idea of verbal jousting and being quick on his feet? Both professions require excellent research and writing skills, and both professions cover all areas of law.

I'm a law graduate, and a qualified solicitor. From a working class background - no one in my family went to uni before me. Went to a mediocre state school and sixth form, and a relatively good (but not Russel Group/Oxbridge) university and got a 2:1. Then went on to study the LPC at law school to be a solicitor. Whilst at law school several friends were studying BVC to become barristers - they were a real mixed bag in terms of background and social class, but from memory none were Oxbridge grads.

I went in-house as a solicitor in a global company and have a really exciting and progressive career without the stress of worrying about my billable hours! So... maybe suggest a law study route if he's particularly interested in that, but definitely don't discount the other legal professions at such an early stage! He genuinely won't know enough about the opportunities in either profession until he's in the thick of it all. Advise him to spend time obtaining internships, vacation scheme placements and work experience in all kinds of legal roles so he can really see what its like. I didn't even really understand that my area of law existed when I was in sixth form!

My SIL is a respected barrister in her field. She started in family law and went on to do work with UNICEF. Her degree was from Liverpool - she didn’t want to go to Oxbridge.

I know plenty of barristers who didn't come from prestigious backgrounds and plenty who did.

You can't go in with a chip in your shoulder about the posh ones. Just get on with working hard and finding ways to get relevant experience.

There are so many different careers in law. Its finding the one that works for your skills and values. The people who manage that tend to really enjoy their jobs (I love mine)

I was a barrister in a public law set.

Oxbridge is useful but not vital, but a 1st from a good university is. Also a law degree isnt vital - a lot of people do history particularly or STEM.

Have a look at Blackstone and Landmark chambers websites - both will set out the application forms for mini pupillages.

It is a hard life - particularly the first few years when you have all the expenses and none of the money, but public law (which includes human rights) can earn £££. There is the cab rank rule which mean you won't always be on the 'right' side.

All the barristers I know are Oxbridge educated but didn't do first degrees in law. This isn't supposed to be representative, it's just that I'm Oxbridge non-lawyer so that's the people I know.

Not to piss on his parade but instead to expand his perspective…. I’m a career coach and work for many blue chips and law firms.

ask him- what experiences in life is he looking for that he he hopes being a barrister will give him?

what skills does he want to use?
what impact does he want to have?

he might find that there are a number of interesting jobs that give him those experiences and are better paid and more meritocratic.

just a thought.

I know 3 barristers, all did other subjects eg English at good RG Unis, then law, then bar.

My family includes a state educated, non-prestigious university educated barrister. Intellect, drive, single minded competitive focus and superior interpersonal skills ie building relationships rather than just networking is what clinched the pupillage I think.

I think you are mistaken here. You can ‘ get ‘ an Inn of Court by paying a tiny joining fee . If you mean pupillage- yes there are more people holding Bar Qualifications than there are pupillages but I don’t think people should be unduly put off. The Bar is tough - always was- but there are many different sorts of practice areas and some are more competitive than others as in any profession.
in my experience barristers chambers and indeed the Inns try quite hard to support young meritorious candidates. The cronyism is much less a factor than it was 40 years ago.
To the OP - it’s a long road from year 11.

I know plenty of barristers without an Oxbridge education. If he wants to aim for Oxbridge all well and good but if he doesn’t get in and finds going to A N Other Uni holds him back in his career he’ll just need to find something else to do. He’s still very young to be so fixated on a very narrow pathway IMO.

If he gets put off by those statistics or because he fails to get into oxbridge, then it is unlikely he will have the resilience or enough confidence to be a barrister. He is already finding excuses for not succeeding!

I did law at uni 20 years ago. We were told then that about 2/3 of people studying law don't go into the legal profession. It's still a respected and useful subject to have a degree in though! Either side, solicitor or barrister, training positions are competitive.

But tbh both professions want to diversify - male oxbridge graduates are already ten a penny. I know there aren't quotas, but both professions want more state school kids, not oxbridge, women/minorities/disabled candidates to apply. So actively seeking out the most boring old school route in may not be the best.

To put a different spin on it: if you did something like a degree in chemistry or engineering, got a first with time in industrial placements, then did a conversion course and aced that, and come with a bit of experience and insight in a different field - that brings something new and different to the table. If you've got 40 candidates who all went to the same unis, did law, work experience at the same firms, and then one candidate who can talk about the skills their different studying and industry experience have taught them - who will you remember that stands out?

I’m a litigation solicitor so work with barristers every day. Far from all barristers went to oxbridge but it depends on what type of barrister he wants to be - regional criminal barrister non-oxbridge is totally normal, top London commercial set many (but definitely not all) of his colleagues would be oxbridge. Is there a reason your son can’t or doesn’t want to go to oxbridge (or other top tier universities)? From what you’ve said there doesn’t seem to be any reason why he couldn’t.

He also doesn’t need to study law as I know plenty of barristers who studied something else and then converted - but again, a good law degree is an advantage if he wants a top commercial set.

I don’t think it’s about who you know or connections, top chambers know that their clients want the best rather than someone’s son or friend so if you’re not good enough you won’t get in on connections. I’m sure it happens and the profession still has a legacy of nepotism in the older generations, but you don’t see it as much in the new intakes.

In terms of the ethical concerns, it’s always a risk if you act for others you won’t always be on the side of the angels. This is especially true when you’re a junior and the work you do is largely dictated by your seniors. However, on the flip sides barristers have strict ethical codes, while they can pursue aims that your son may not like, they must do it in an open and honest way so the court knows the facts and can make a fair decision within the law. As he gets more senior he’ll be able to make more decisions about what cases he takes on and throughout a barristers career there are opportunities to do pro bono in areas that he cares about.

I would also advise him not to rule out being a solicitor too early. It may be that being a barrister is 100% the right choice for him but there’s a lot of variation in what solicitors can do - for example, there’s more opportunity to do pro bono if he wants to follow his conscience. I work for a US law firm and get paid a high salary but was still able to devote 20% of my hours to charities that I care about in the last year. I would suggest looking at arbitration where solicitors can do a lot of the advocacy.

Overall, nothing you’ve said suggests it is impossible for your son to be a barrister.

To be honest it makes me laugh when people say how bright and driven their DC are and then ask for information on their behalf that a bright, driven person would be able to find in about 5 minutes by googling chambers websites and LinkedIn.

This is very unfair.

A lot of info you get off the internet is very biased or complete BS.

Most year 11s do not come on to mumsnet.

OP is asking for opinions for herself, based on people’s experience in RL.

Worth reading Nothing but the Truth by The Secret Barrister. Talks about how he/She got into the job. No connections or public school.

Aw, I love those kinds of life stories ☺️

My post above should have been directed at dazedandconcerned whose comments about ‘ not getting an Inn of Court’ were unduly negative and incorrect - especially coming from a law graduate. Apologies.
I am a barrister - what I would say to any year 11 is get on with your studies, get into the best university you can , get involved in life, speak to peers and college tutors, apply for vacation schemes and most importantly keep an open mind about how your career will pan out.

My friend (mid 30s) retrained. She studied law at the local uni (not RG and definitely not oxbridge) at 30 and has just secured a pupillage. So it’s definitely possible.

That sounds just like my OH. He did not do a law degree but did get a first (following public school). He has brilliant social skills and is funny and a brilliant networker so perhaps tell your DS to focus on building those skills.

He spent many years living off his side hustles (property investment) before he became a superstar performer so it helped that he was never poor. He now chooses to work for about a quarter of the week to hit his six figure annual target.

I'd listen to accounts like this, OP.

My son is like yours, OP, but now in Year 13. Seriously considered pursuing being a barrister, loves the idea, matches to that a career in many ways ... but ultimately decided against it for reasons like this. We know no one. He went to a state school, so no connections to share at Oxbridge if he went. And it's so competitive, with many barristers struggling to make ends meet. He's now applying to engineering programmes.