To think it's not impossible that ds could become a barrister?

[coffeerevelsrule]

I am shamelessly posting here for traffic to try and get some advice for ds1 as I don't know about this to advise him properly.

He is currently in Y11 and predicted all 8s and 9s. He is incredibly driven and focused and has done tons of research into degrees and careers. He has come to the conclusion that he'd like to be a barrister - he's certain at the moment he would not want to be a solicitor. However, his research has led him to believe that unless he does law at Oxbridge he stands next to no chance of securing a pupillage, and that even if he does this will still not guarantee a career as a barrister. He is quoting all sorts of scary stats and basically thinks that without connections and Oxbridge he'll have no chance. He's also concerned that it'll be a 'beggars can't be choosers' scenario and he'll end up helping some corporation pay less tax and/or screw over their employees, which he wouldn't want to do. He wants to go into human rights but has realised this doesn't pay well, which, despite his principles, puts him off.

My opinion is that he is extremely bright and also has other qualities that will make him desirable, such as the aforementioned drive and focus, and that he is likely to get an excellent degree from an excellent university (maybe Oxbridge, maybe not) and that that degree will lead him to some kind of excellent career that he may not even be aware exists at the moment. He's not happy with this response.

Does anyone have any advice and/or experience of people from 'ordinary' backgrounds making it as a barrister and/or people with law degrees having a worthwhile career in another sector? I'm all talked out about this at the moment!

As a wife and mother, what @reluctantlogin said.

Aim high and make compromises along the way whilst keeping all the doors open.

My DH did it from a comp. 40 years ago. It's more diverse than it was. There were years when the DC didn't see him from Monday to Friday. As your ds matures he will think about the life he wants and how to get it.

He needs the courage of his convictions.

I have a few barrister friends and none of them went to Oxbridge. Manchester, Sheffield, Durham and Birmingham off the top of my head.

I work in a sixth form college. I have taught a number of students who are now barristers. None went to Oxford, none have law connections. Sometimes being the big fish in the slightly smaller pond can give you the edge. E.g, I taught A level law to a student who had done his GCSEs at the worst school results wise in the borough. Lived in an area of extreme socio economic deprivation. He got A grades at A level, a first class degree from a Russell group uni (but one of the lesser ones) prize for best LLB student, scholarship for bar finals. Still took him a year or so to get pupillary but he’s done so well since then.

He needs to look at the cvs of a range of barristers and do what they did. They are not all Oxbridge, but all have stellar academics. Usually masters, lots of mooting and debating. Get a first wherever you go, and study hard.

I know a few barristers, only one did a law degree. The others all did Classics, History, Philosophy... essay subjects . One Oxford, the others went to Edinburgh, Durham or St Andrews.

I don't know any scientists who later became barristers, but I know a fair few who did PhDs and now do patent law.

Barristers I know ...

One went to London state school, 2(1) in humanities subject at Cambridge, BVC, Bar school and pupillage after that. Not outstanding genius but always very good at connecting with people, getting work experience, being on every committee going and getting involved in all sorts. Now a KC and has continued that drive to connect and organise.

Other went to ordinary midlands comp, very clever, first in sciences at Cambridge, did PhD then swapped to law.

Another very similar, but very good independent day public school, very bright, top sciences degree, PhD, then barristering.

Two other - private day school, Cambridge (humanities) - BVC and pupillage - both now KCs

Another Eton, (scholarship) Cambridge, BVC, pupillage - now a KC

None of them studied law at Cambridge, interestingly. They all did history, music, or sciences.

Thank you very much for all these helpful responses - lots to read, consider and look into. I'll be showing him all the links.

He is well aware of the need to do work experience, mini-pupillages, mooting/debating etc and I have no doubt he would avail himself of these opportunities and would seek them out. I don't think it's impossible for him to get to Oxbridge, but I've known several people over the years to get fantastic grades and on paper look like perfect candidates and they weren't offered places, so it's nice to read that it's not necessarily essential.

As for being a barrister rather than a solicitor, he has always been something of a leader and the advocacy element is what really appeals to him about that. However, I completely agree that he needs to look into the difference between the roles more carefully and be more open-minded about it, and indeed look at other careers. He's dead against working for corporations though...I am trying to get him to be more open-minded about that too. I also thought myself that he probably has a somewhat simplistic view of corporate law (though he definitely knows it's very competitive - I shouldn't have used the 'beggars can't be choosers' phrase as that's not how he put it to me and it obviously isn't how people 'end up' in corporate law!)

The problem with not doing a law degree initially is one of cost if he then did decide to go into it. History is his passion, but the worry is the cost of adding an additional year of study if this could be avoided. This time next year he'll be applying for university, so that element at least has to be decided by them.

what I would say to any year 11 is get on with your studies, get into the best university you can , get involved in life, speak to peers and college tutors, apply for vacation schemes and most importantly keep an open mind about how your career will pan out.

Aside from the bit about vacation schemes, this is pretty much what I say to him every day but he won't stop going on about this, hence me seeking advice on here!

I am a barrister and went to Oxbridge from a sink comprehensive. Didn’t read law. There are plenty in my set who are non-Oxbridge though Oxbridge remains over represented at the Bar as a whole.

I’d say this:

• my set never gave points at the paper assessment stage to the university, only to the class of degree, and for many years has redacted the university so assessors don’t even see what university it is.
• I would expect most sets now to do the same as a matter of best recruitment practice.
• Oxbridge, and Russell Group universities, and law degree courses, are all competitive. The knock-on effect is that applicants for pupillage from any of those backgrounds are likely to be well-qualified, competitive and driven people with excellent CVs. I am not saying there is no “Oxbridge bias” but you have to take that into account too.
• Oxbridge also has the advantage that many of the CV points like mooting and debating are easy to pick up because every college has its own moot club, whereas I know from my outreach work that students from other universities may struggle because moot competitions and the like are less available and are oversubscribed.
• The Inns of Court run open days for 6th formers, and their websites generally have a lot of information. Worth a look.
• I agree with PP who is a barrister that the absolute best thing is to focus on getting the best academic qualifications possible, from school and from whatever university he goes to.
• Also focus on CV points and it is worth looking at junior barristers’ CVs to see what sort of things they did as students.
• The financial outlook for criminal barristers is dire. Civil practice much less so, though there are increasingly downward pressures on fees. I admire the criminal Bar hugely, their job is vital, but I would not (and most criminal practitioners would not) recommend going to the criminal Bar.
• Good luck to him. I’ve hugely enjoyed it for most of my time.

There is no reason why he cannot be a barrister , this being said I think it’s good he realises it’s hard . Not easy to get a pupilage or funding to survive on one at present . And as you know barristers are self employed so at the start of the careers they often can go months even a full year without being paid . I know this as I’m one who choose to leave the profession and I’m now a practicing solicitor . But I graduated late 20s and I already had a child so it was the uncertainty of income that killed the dream for me , plus I had a few rough cases to start with and decided I needed my consciente clear for a good nights sleep , it’s not easy and it’s not as in the movies . I’m quite happy doing what I do now , ideas change as we mature and your son has plenty of opportunities within his legal degree if he changes his mind . Good luck for whatever he chooses

Solicitor here. Private commercial practice.

I think you can probably be a barrister in fields like criminal law from non-Oxbridge backgrounds. As someone said above, they've all been striking because they earn 17p a day or something awful. I work with Chambers in London (corporate and property law) mainly and all are, without exception, predominantly Oxbridge. It's all about who you know AND merit. You can't get there just on contacts alone.

Those regional chambers I work with on occasion have non Oxbridge barristers but they earn less than I do.

My advice would be that it's easier to be a solicitor coming from a middle or working class background than the bar.

A family member of mine has recently got a pupillage after passing the bar. They went to a good university in a big city but nowhere like oxbridge. Pupillages are very competitive and my family member is working in a certain type of law which wasn't thier number one preference but the only pupillage they could get after applying for loads all over the country. Back up plan was to be a solicitor. It is very competitive but not impossible.

Just to correct your last post - he won't be applying to universities this time next year, it'll be the year after so he's still got a good bit of time to think about what he wants.

If he doesn’t want to work for corporations I’d say that oxbridge is definitely less important - it’s an advantage everywhere but less so in non commercial sets.

I would say though that not being willing to work for corporations is a bit naive (which is totally understandable at his age and will probably change when he gets into the detail of what working for corporations actually involves) and will count out an awful lot of chambers before he starts.

Corporations are ultimately groups of people, it’s true that it’s not always the same fuzzy feeling as working for the little guy but often the corporation is 100% in the right. Sometimes the corporation has its business threatened by the wrongdoing of an individual or another corporation and a lot of people’s jobs are on the line. Very often you are defending the work, jobs and reputations of individuals within the corporation who have not done anything wrong and stand to lose their and their family’s means of support. So, while it can seem that way from the outside, it’s really not as simple as corporation = bad, individual = good.

He doesn’t have to decide now. He could complete his law degree - if he is highly successful at a top university then his chances of securing a pupilage will be improved. But he has time to decide.

It depends what area he wants to practice in. It’s certainly easier than it one was, but still tough for those with a normal background.
Regional Chambers are easier for non-public school/Oxbridge grads, family/criminal law also possibilities (but not a given), top Chancery sets in my experience are almost impossibly if you don’t have that background and/or don’t have connections.
Certainly my experience from uni was not that the most gifted became barristers, but those with connections and that ludicrous unshatterable self confidence many people of those backgrounds appear to have. Most of us became solicitors at city firms.
Of those who became barristers, three I know practise outside of London (only one state school person among them), all bar one who practice in the Inns of Court are public-school educated, have incredible connections. The one who isn’t worked for aid agencies and the UN from uni, moving to law in her late 20s and is a barrister at a top human rights set. But her dad is a famous QC/KC, so that helped.

Husband called to the Bar 40 years ago - grammar school educated- went to a poly - humble background. He got out after 15 years being a barrister as its a hustle job and didn't have financial support ie rich parents to fall back on when the rent needing paying!

My DH is a barrister having gone to a state school; he then studied Law at Southampton. Neither of his parents went to university and he had no connections whatsoever. He got pupillage in the first year of trying and now works for the CPS as a criminal barrister in London. It is absolutely achievable for your DS! Good luck to him!

DC’s uncle and Aunt both have a law degree from UCL. Uncle is a lawyer with google, not barrister, he does contracts type law I think. Aunt is a senior civil servant, achieved in little over 12yrs which is quite impressive. Both in London and earning good money.
I do think it’s very competitive going into a career as a barrister, but other options for law degrees out there.

I wanted to be a barrister but ended up becoming a solicitor because I couldn't handle the insecure earnings of the early years as a junior barrister (I was a single mum at the time).

Both barristers' chambers and law firms are very focused these days on fairer access into the profession and I don't think Oxbridge is required at all. What is required by the good sets of chambers is a top class degree and plenty of relevant work experience. Your DS could start off at this stage by writing to barristers' chambers to ask if they offer any work experience for pre-university age people. If not then he can apply for mini-pupillages in the uni holidays.

He could also consider applying for vac schemes at law firms so he gains a balanced view of the respective roles of solicitors and barristers. A barrister's life can be a bit lonely, being self-employed. He might find that he prefers the role of a solicitor. It's at least worth being able to demonstrate a proper understanding of the realities of both, at interviews.

He could become a solicitor and the get his HRA (Higher Rights of Audience) and then essentially do both. Not the same as a barrister but its there as an option.

What a fab story. I was a 16yr old teenage mum and love these stories. I’ve done well, but not that well! She’s not a KC!

Reading with intrigue and all the best op

It's also worth considering the option of qualifying as a solicitor through the apprentice route. These days, you can start as an apprentice aged 18, spend 5 years training on the job and at the end you are on the same newly qualified salary as those who have gone the trad route of degree, law school, training contract. Except they've got £50k of debt and you've got no debt and have been earning for years already.

Many solicitors change to become barristers later in their careers.

The issue isn't qualifying which is relatively straightforward (albeit expensive) but getting pupillage for which there is heavy competition. Many will do a law degree and the Bar course but never get pupillage. Most chambers look therefore for the brightest and the best.

I know many barristers who didn't go to Oxbridge but they are very bright nonetheless. I think the point about Oxbridge is the assumption by chambers that they too look for the brightest and so it's a shortcut to an interview.

If he's keen and excels academically then he stands a good chance even if he doesn't go to Oxbridge. But it's a competitive field and he should be ready for that.

@coffeerevelsrule don't agree with your username btw!!

Get him to read or listen to all the secret barrister books. The latest one explains their career path.

He'll need to be financially supported or get a loan for the first 6 months of the pupil age as it's not paid. Second 6 months is.

Legal aid pays peanuts but you feel very good working for the little man.