To think it's not impossible that ds could become a barrister?

[coffeerevelsrule]

I am shamelessly posting here for traffic to try and get some advice for ds1 as I don't know about this to advise him properly.

He is currently in Y11 and predicted all 8s and 9s. He is incredibly driven and focused and has done tons of research into degrees and careers. He has come to the conclusion that he'd like to be a barrister - he's certain at the moment he would not want to be a solicitor. However, his research has led him to believe that unless he does law at Oxbridge he stands next to no chance of securing a pupillage, and that even if he does this will still not guarantee a career as a barrister. He is quoting all sorts of scary stats and basically thinks that without connections and Oxbridge he'll have no chance. He's also concerned that it'll be a 'beggars can't be choosers' scenario and he'll end up helping some corporation pay less tax and/or screw over their employees, which he wouldn't want to do. He wants to go into human rights but has realised this doesn't pay well, which, despite his principles, puts him off.

My opinion is that he is extremely bright and also has other qualities that will make him desirable, such as the aforementioned drive and focus, and that he is likely to get an excellent degree from an excellent university (maybe Oxbridge, maybe not) and that that degree will lead him to some kind of excellent career that he may not even be aware exists at the moment. He's not happy with this response.

Does anyone have any advice and/or experience of people from 'ordinary' backgrounds making it as a barrister and/or people with law degrees having a worthwhile career in another sector? I'm all talked out about this at the moment!

He needs to try and find and get to know some solicitors and barristers so he can do some work experience. I qualified as a solicitor in 2009 despite leaving school with only 2 gcses. It is all about making contacts. I got a training contract through meeting solicitors through working for the CAB. It is easy to meet sol and bar on a law degree, so I would suggest he does that at a good university with good legal links. He should research which unis are best for those links.

I’d encourage him (and you) not to turn your noses up at solicitors or lawyers who ‘work for corporations’. Securing a training contract at many city firms is as competitive as the bar. As I said in my original post, encouraging him to work as hard as he can over the next couple of years and prove his predicted grades will be key.

I also didn’t read Law at university. I read History. The extra year at uni to convert will be paid by any good firm.

My friend got a pupillage after studying Law at Manchester uni.

Our son went to Cambridge, though he didn't study Law. He then did a Graduate Diploma in Law, followed by the BPTC. He's done a number of mini- pupillages and is now working as a paralegal while he tries to get a pupillage. It's definitely a hard career to enter; however, our son's paralegal job is well-paid and may lead to other opportunities if he doesn't get a pupillage. If your son does decide to do Law, he should try to participate in some of the vacation schemes offered by large law companies - this will help him to make valuable contacts and develop his CV. He may even decide to go down the solicitor route after all. Hope all goes well whatever he decides!

A friend from school did a music degree (not Oxbridge) then a law conversion course and is now a very successful barrister. I think success as a barrister depends hugely on personality and ability - she was incredibly shrewd, quick-thinking and clever, and could out-debate anyone, even as a teenager.

DH is a barrister at one of the top chambers. Not a criminal barrister. He is on the committee for choosing pupils. Certainly not a barrier if you haven't been to Oxbridge or Private school- they want the brightest and the best but that definitely doesn't necessarily mean Oxbridge. They often interview without the interviewer knowing where they went to University. They also pay their pupils for the whole pupillage period.
Very competitive but definitely worth a try if that's what he really wants to do. Just need to be realistic about the odds of success. DH took a non- conventional route to the bar as have quite a few of his fellow barristers.

It sounds like your DS might be quite naive about what it is like to work in the legal profession. If he thinks it is all about justice and fighting for what's right, he is likely to be disappointed. He would be well advised to undertake a range of work experience to get a more realistic understanding of what it is like to work in law.

Well I didn't want to work for corporation's when I was 16 either. 5 years down the line with debts up to his eyeballs and the prospect of less than minimum wage and tons of responsibility will likely change his mind. So you don't need to do that now.

But he might end up as a lawyer. Being a lawyer is hell on earth. Tell him to choose anything else, literally anything.
It's too late for me he can save himself.

It’s very difficult and competitive to get a pupilage at the bar in England. I know someone who recruits for a decent chambers and they get thousands of well qualified applicants.

Your son sounds a bit naive with the stuff about human rights. As a lawyer you have to represent your client regardless if you are sympathetic to them or not. Perhaps law is not for him

I was about to say the same. In my days, prior to the internet, I wanted to go to a particular uni - my parents couldn't pay but I wasn't eligible for grants. I researched my options, found a scholarship, studied, won, and hey presto. I did not expect my parents to do that for me. I'm unclear how someone who is bright and driven would wait for their parents to find a solution...

As a senior legal secretary 15 years ago I only had to do an extra course and I could have been a barrister. I was amazed but it was true and some of my colleagues went ahead with it.
You don’t have to be particularly clever

Well at my d dad's former chambers, their criteria for picking pupils was based on whether they would stick around once they'd qualified- or whether they'd bugger off to a more glamorous city. So on that basis, they'd often choose people who had already lived in the area for a while or who had family/ connections in the area. So it really depends on what type of law/ chambers your son is interested in. None of the barristers (about 20 altogether) there were Oxbridge.

YAB completely unreasonable. It’s definitely worth a try. I am a barrister, ordinary family, no legal connections, got decent GCSEs and A levels, 2:1 from a red brick and VC (very competent - the top grade being outstanding) on the bar course. I also did a load of mooting at uni, did a handful of mini-pupillage and marshalled some judges. Having sat on the pupillage committee many times, it is still possible for a similar candidate to get pupillage today. I did get a scholarship from my inn of court, which will have helped my application- but your son could equally apply for one of those. I’m confused by the previous poster saying they didn’t get an inn - there isn’t a selection process for simply getting in! Only for scholarships.

My husband is also a barrister with a very similar academic background- the only difference is he comes from a working class background whereas mine was more middle class.

It is completely achievable for a bright, hardworking kid, who can think on their feet. Hard, but achievable. Why not go for it? What’s the worst that can happen?

Also meant to say he definitely doesn't need to do a law degree. DH really wishes he'd done something else and most of the barristers he knows didn't do law at Uni.

I genuinely play that song at trainees sometimes…

Sorry, showing my excellent attention to detail there and misreading your question! YANBU! For the reasons given in my previous post 😂

I have 2 very good mates who are barristers. Both were state educated ( one at a grammar, one at a comp) and neither went to Oxbridge, so it can definitely be done. Its a competitive career, but so are many others.

..and if he does criminal law he'll be broke for years 😒

The barrister I know went to Newcastle university and is also part of a female same sex couple (not saying that’s a problem - I’m just pointing out that being different from the perceived notion of the typical barrister isn’t always a barrier!). She’s driven and certainly clever but I wouldn’t say is a particularly “alpha” sort of person.

Do note though that barristers don’t always earn a fortune - they are self employed and the pay isn’t always as good as you would expect for such a highly trained professional!

I know a couple of barristers -both female. Neither went to Oxbridge, but they did go to other very highly regarded universities. Neither did law at university. They had degrees in English and in History. Neither were privately educated or had any family connections. I know a lot more solicitors from similar backgrounds.

The Bar is a terribly cliquey, closed profession.

Its got a huge contingent of privileged, white privately educated types. There are then niche pockets of extremely bright ethnic minority barristers, often practising out of majority minority chambers - see 12 old sq. Many of these will also be from rather wealthy backgrounds and/or be very well connected. Then there are criminal etc barristers on the fringes/in regions, much more normal (albeit bright) and earning a pittance.

I know one individual from a less privileged background who broke in. They are oxbridge educated and were extremely bright (we are talking best in year) and spent years after university earning little while getting going.

I know 1 barrister who went to Manchester uni, 1 Liverpool and 1 Bristol. The one who went Liverpool came from a very working class background, state school etc.

Surely our recent experience with Kwasi Kwarteng has caused people to rethink how exclusively valuable it is to have all the right qualifications from all the best places?

In-house solicitor here, with a Cambridge law degree. I was completely put off the bar because practically everyone I know, certainly in decent commercial sets, has first class Oxbridge degrees, normally with prizes for coming top of the university or their College in at least one subject in their degree, plus postgrad degrees plus mooting champion etc etc. I thought I just wasn’t intellectually up to it - although I’m a really excellent communicator and presenter and probably would have made a good advocate.

The formality and stress of getting told off my stern judges sometimes (maybe often!) also didn’t appeal.

It is considered that the very brightest legal minds end up at the bar; it’s partly why my organisation seeks counsel’s opinion on the more complex points of law.