To think it's not impossible that ds could become a barrister?

[coffeerevelsrule]

I am shamelessly posting here for traffic to try and get some advice for ds1 as I don't know about this to advise him properly.

He is currently in Y11 and predicted all 8s and 9s. He is incredibly driven and focused and has done tons of research into degrees and careers. He has come to the conclusion that he'd like to be a barrister - he's certain at the moment he would not want to be a solicitor. However, his research has led him to believe that unless he does law at Oxbridge he stands next to no chance of securing a pupillage, and that even if he does this will still not guarantee a career as a barrister. He is quoting all sorts of scary stats and basically thinks that without connections and Oxbridge he'll have no chance. He's also concerned that it'll be a 'beggars can't be choosers' scenario and he'll end up helping some corporation pay less tax and/or screw over their employees, which he wouldn't want to do. He wants to go into human rights but has realised this doesn't pay well, which, despite his principles, puts him off.

My opinion is that he is extremely bright and also has other qualities that will make him desirable, such as the aforementioned drive and focus, and that he is likely to get an excellent degree from an excellent university (maybe Oxbridge, maybe not) and that that degree will lead him to some kind of excellent career that he may not even be aware exists at the moment. He's not happy with this response.

Does anyone have any advice and/or experience of people from 'ordinary' backgrounds making it as a barrister and/or people with law degrees having a worthwhile career in another sector? I'm all talked out about this at the moment!

This was some time ago now, but DP was a barrister. He isn’t an Oxbridge graduate and came from a low income household.

I'm a solicitor and I find that a lot of barristers went to oxbridge, but obviously not all. It is an extremely competitive process to get a pupilage and I certainly know more people that didn't get them, than did. I would say that going to oxbridge would put him in the best position. I would also say that knowing people helps as firms/chambers are less willing to give out work experience these days, but are less bothered about people bringing in nephews etc who will shadow them.

Your son is convinced he wants to be a barrister over a solicitor, why? I ask because there are some solicitors who have rights of audience that advocate in courts. There are solicitors working for the CPS that cross examine in the same ways as barristers etc. The difference isn't so cut and dry across different areas of the law so he doesn't have to decide for sure right now!

Just as with solicitors’ firms, there is a huge range of barristers’ chambers ranging from top end London chambers working exclusively on multi million pound
disputes, to smaller regional chambers working on much more run of the mill cases. As you may expect there’s more of the latter than the former.

If he has his heart set on the top London law sets (One Essex, Brick Court, Blackstone etc) then I do think Oxbridge is quite important tbh. I used to work with such sets regularly and most of their barristers (including the recent recruits) seem to be Oxbridge grads - and they often have a First and some impressive prizes at uni level plus postgrad studies too. Terrifying really

I doubt background has much to do with it, or connections, any more - though innate confidence is definitely important (which can come from privilege) and I’m guessing there may still be some snobbery around accents. But they mainly want people who can show they are the top of the top academically.

However outside those few chambers, it is a lot more varied. So the great majority of barristers will not fit this mould.

As to whether a law degree can lead to other good jobs - yes of course, I know many ex law students who went into other fields.

@superginger That's precisely why we lived in zone 2. By the time DH was mid to late 30s and on an arduous case, he booked into an hotel so he could focus 110% on the case.

DH didn't intend to go into law. He intended to go into politics and law was his chosen vehicle to do it. Then it became his absolute vocation and he realised the appeal of a political salary didn't cut it. Has influenced in other ways.

Comp lad albeit with a brain the size of a planet who did go to Oxford but didn't read law.

Head boy
Almost made County cricket
Chair of local YCs and then other stuff
Wrote to a senior member of the judiciary aged 20 and got himself a tour of Lincoln's Inn and sat in the gallery of the High Court
Had a gap year as PA to a government minister, because he asked for it
Converted to law
Did bar exams
Got a pupillage
Only just survived the early years before the fees started rolling in and had no family help. Had a grotty room in a grotty flat
Met me and carried on rather than giving up because I was able to make life more comfortable.

There have been highs and lows. He missed a labour for example. He missed so many parents' evenings and concerts but many things, mostly material, were never an issue. But as Superginger said, many marriages fail due to the pressure.

We are 60s now so my input is probably horribly out of date.

ha, cross posted with Halibut and said much the same thing!

I was a teenager when ds was born and he’d been classed as homeless twice before he was a teenager. He’s now studying a law degree at a good university (albeit not oxbridge) and is keeping all options, including as a barrister, open. He does say that anything less than a first and you’re not going to be able to compete for the top traineeships, and he’s already applying for summer internships for next year, but he’s not letting his background hold him back.
I would recommend your son be positive but realistic, start researching different unis, and be open to the different directions studying law could take him in.

Just another thing to consider - the CPS also offer pupillages. My friend from law school was offered one of these (York Uni graduate) and is forging a very successful career there - I believe she's now moved to a role within HMRC (so your son would not be helping a company avoid paying corporation tax, he would be ensuring they pay it!). The main benefit to this scheme is the reasonable hours (in comparison) and stable employment.

But your son has LOADS of time to consider what to do. Both my friend and I gained our pupillages and training contracts (me at a large City firm, having a degree from UEA) having worked for 3-4 years between university and law school. I think this helped us to stand out from the crowd a little more as we had some solid work experience behind us... but from my point of view I only did this because I came out of uni still not knowing what I wanted to do. The beauty of a career in the legal profession is that previous experience, especially in other industries is usually looked on as an asset.

I would suggest he works hard to get good grades and looks for all opportunities to get some experience in law - which will also help him to see the reality of a legal career.

Of those that were doing law that I was friends with at uni that I still know about, some are still in the law, some went into other careers including consulting in finance and risk in the maritime industry, and one is a diplomat. One retrained and opened a bakery. Not Oxford or Cambridge, other degrees are fine, but do make sure the law degrees are well regarded ones which are 'qualifying law degrees' and he should make sure he takes a full part in everything offered as optional plus having a well-rounded CV from extra-curricular and part time work and summer placements (not necessarily law). He should use the university's careers office early and regularly to make sure he has the best CV for law, as well as aim for the best grades he can manage. If he wants to study law and aspire to be a barrister at age 15, support that! There is plenty of time to aim for one's dreams and still be realistic if it's not happening as planned by say age 30. Also bear in mind that there are other routes into law if he doesn't get into his choice of uni to do law post A-level - conversion courses, part time degrees by distance learning. Avoid law as an A-level or make it the 3rd A-level. History, English would be a good starting point and will be wanted . Anything with lots of reading and analysis of text. Law has A LOT of reading, among other things, as a degree. Get on the UCAS website now (don't wait until age 17) to find out what universities offer and what they want - some qualifying law degrees can be studies jointly with another subject which keeps options open but some people prefer pure law. He can start going to uni open days from the summer between GCSE and A-level and register interest on their websites 2 years+ ahead.

The barrister I know is very flamboyant and driven, she has extremely strong opinions on everything. She went to a normal school but worked very hard.

Contrary to popular belief they don't get paid much at first, I think it's not brilliant pay until you gain more experience.

I think your son should work hard and go for it.

This popped into my inbox today. Might be of interest to OP?

www.law.cam.ac.uk/press/news/2022/08/we-have-break-down-misconceptions-widening-participation-law?utm_campaign=alumni&utm_medium=email&utm_source=1090887_M17199%20LawLink%20October%202022&dm_i=6DCG,NDQF,2JFP5Y,2W1RV,1

I'm a barrister - everything is easier if you have connections but I and many of my pupils never had any connections and we all have made successful careers out of it.

Yes it's hard work and it takes a lot of grit and determination but it is of course possible to make a career at the bar.

We mostly work in publicly funded work involving criminal justice and human rights.

We are in the north of Ireland, our bar hasn't been destroyed the same way it has in England.

My advice that I have given to many of pupils is to try if that's what you want to do then do it.

Better to follow your passions in life when you are young and don't have any responsibilities.

The bar is a wonderful dynamic profession.