Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that transing young children is a medical scandal?

291 replies

WandaWomblesaurus · 22/10/2022 02:53

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11342541/Dr-Az-Hakeem-says-parents-claimed-kids-trans-NHS-Tavistock-transing-factory-clinic.html

"I remember saying to them, this is madness. What we're doing is madness. These are children. These are three-year-olds."
Are we seriously saying this is ok? I feel like as a society we have gone mad, allowing this to happen to young children.

AIBU to think this is child abuse? And if you disagree how do you justify three and four year olds being transed?

OP posts:
EdgeOfACoin · 22/10/2022 16:45

But counselling children about their gender confusion and giving them talking therapy would be caught in the net of 'conversion therapy'.

Abitofalark · 22/10/2022 17:05

Yes, Mrs O, There are unsuitable people - both in government departments or Parliament and in the education system - to have anything to do with policies for children and looking after their interests in schools. It is awful to think of what they have been able to do and get away with. And some of them are women.

Women on mumsnet and some other places (and a few men) have raised awareness and protested but it has been an uphill battle for mothers and parents even to know what is going on in the school or to have any influence over it - and even for teachers who did know but had concerns.

Tumbleweed101 · 22/10/2022 17:18

Even at secondary school age it is scary and there is so much being discussed on this topic in schools now. My children say half the people they know are pretending to be transgender or gay simply because its the cool thing right now. This takes away from those who have genuine need for support with this issue.

Nobody should be given drugs to change until they have been thoroughly assessed and councilled to ensure they know the long term changes that will be made to their bodies. Most under 18s won't have this life awareness to decide.

SilverGlitterBaubles · 22/10/2022 17:42

@Tumbleweed101 This really is a thing in secondary schools, it must be a complete nightmare for teachers and parents to navigate. Kids at DCs school have identified as different genders and changed names and pronouns a few times then get highly offended and cause huge drama if a teacher or classmate addresses them incorrectly. A few kids have identified as an animal. How the heck have we got here?

nothingcomestonothing · 22/10/2022 18:04

Not just a medical scandal - all of our public bodies and services, professional associations, charities, all completely captured and dissent ruthlessly and effectively silenced by 'no debate' and fast loud accusations of hatred and phobia.

There needs to be a public inquiry not just into the transing of our children, but into how this has happened. How it has been so easy to circumvent safeguarding measures so well and for so long.

The NHS is thoroughly captured but so too is almost every other organisation whose business it is to keep women and children safe. Police, charities, education, social work, psychotherapy, OFSTED, the courts, local government, national government, you name it. Genuinely frightening.----

ResisterRex · 22/10/2022 18:05

I was just doing some research when I came across this. It's from November 2018. This has been going on for such a long time, and it has been reported but thus far, to no avail:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6401593/Whistleblower-teacher-makes-shocking-claim-autistic.html

"An astonishing 17 pupils at a single British school are in the process of changing gender, The Mail on Sunday can reveal.
Most of the youngsters undergoing the transformation are autistic, according to a teacher there, who said vulnerable children with mental health problems were being ‘tricked’ into believing they are the wrong sex.
The whistleblower says few of the transgender children are suffering from gender dysphoria – the medical term for someone who feels they were born in the wrong body – but are just easily influenced, latching on to the mistaken belief they are the wrong sex as a way of coping with the problems caused by autism.
Earlier this year, The Mail on Sunday revealed that a third of youngsters referred to the NHS’s only gender identity clinic for children showed ‘moderate to severe autistic traits’.
It means that 150 autistic teenagers were given puberty blocker drugs which stop the body maturing.
The teacher says she felt compelled to speak out to protect pupils, many of whom she believes could already be taking the powerful drugs and may go on to have life-changing surgery.
She believes schools and some politicians have swallowed ‘hook, line and sinker’ a politically-correct ‘fallacy’ peddled by a powerful transgender lobby."

So the article goes on.

WowStarsWow · 22/10/2022 18:45

4 years on, there are probably 17 in every year group in every school!

maddening · 22/10/2022 18:51

CatchYouOnTheFlippetyFlop · 22/10/2022 03:03

Of course it's madness. Of course it's child abuse.

It's a massive backwards step, playing up to stereotypes that need to be scrapped.

I think it's more of a socialisation scandal with younger children, rather than a medical one. Although I am aware on rare occasions kids are given puberty blockers.

It's all wrong.

It is a gateway to medical transition though, it sets the child on a path with an increased likeliehood for the medicalistion such as puberty blockers - with life long consequences- followed by wrong sex hormones and surgery. Whereas not social transitioning would more likely result in a the matter rectifying itself overtime (depending on the cause)

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/10/2022 19:11

Yes maddening. It's also gateway to serious psychological problems as the child's (or teenager's) body proves that they're not the sex that everyone around them tells them they are - hence all the meltdowns about misgendering & wrong pronouns.
They're dependent on everyone "obeying the rules" and pretending that they're the sex they say they are - in defiance of reality. It's downright cruel.

Clymene · 22/10/2022 19:13

EdgeOfACoin · 22/10/2022 16:45

But counselling children about their gender confusion and giving them talking therapy would be caught in the net of 'conversion therapy'.

Indeed. Something which Keir Starmer said in his speech at Prick News the other day that he would ban.

ArabellaScott · 22/10/2022 19:14

YANBU.

My heart just breaks for the young people caught up in this ideology and so badly let down by medics and professionals. It seems the NHS are at last starting to wake up - but the scandal can't break fast enough imo; how many have been harmed? Sterilised? Taught nonsensical anti-science?

Get this bullshit out of our schools.

JohnsShirt · 22/10/2022 19:43

Has Keir Starmer seen India Willoughby's cervix yet?

ValancyRedfern · 22/10/2022 21:21

It is a total and utter scandal. Please ask your children's schools for their trans policy. Mine says teachers should immediately socially transition a child if they request it and not tell the parents because that would breach GDPR. The world has gone mad.

ConsuelaHammock · 23/10/2022 11:36

A very informative thread. Thank you to everyone who took the time to add links to journals etc I shall be sharing these with my colleagues.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/10/2022 11:58

As we wonder how we got our children into this mess, it's worth taking a look at some of the groups schools use to talk directly to children. Educate & Celebrate "advise" schools about LGBT issues. Jordan Gray is the transwoman who sung a misogynistic piece on Friday Night Live (Channel 4) and then fully exposed himself to the audience / cameras with no prior warning, using his penis to play his piano (there's a sentence I never thought I'd write). I'm accurately sexing JG as flashing is a sexual offence & MNHQ allow discussion about the perpetrators of sex offences to be accurately described.
Jordan has a side hustle working for this children's charity going into primary schools to talk to children about sex and gender issues. Jordan has written about his conversations with children as young as 4 in schools.
How is Jordan an appropriate role model to talk to children as young as 4 about sexual identity?

ResisterRex · 23/10/2022 12:47

Looks like direct contact with toddlers from this:

twitter.com/cheesycuban/status/1584082381874421760?s=46&t=BziyNG6ZgvrmHOLryNQOOw

Certainly looks like this person has been in schools with "Educate and Celebrate"

mamabear715 · 23/10/2022 12:52

It's horrendous. :-(

ResisterRex · 23/10/2022 12:54

This fundraiser is worth bookmarking:

twitter.com/succubus_mag/status/1082239082703609857?s=46&t=91FgA9jQ21602SuQZuBaQA

Beneficiaries seemed to include Mermaids, Gendered Intelligence, and Education and Celebrate

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 23/10/2022 13:35

If you look at the background of some of the adults that the government (via the Women & Equalities Committee, the DfE and others) have "consulted with" in recent years, it makes for uncomfortable reading.

This applies to some of the clinical staff at the NHS clinic, too. Over the last couple of days, I've followed up some things I've seen previously mentioned, and it's cast some light on the performance of the Tavistock. One clinical psychologist, who has worked at the Tavistock since 2015 and is still there, used to be one of the organisers of a tantra group where they (they use the pronouns they- I'm not trying to obscure their sex, which is clearly female) described themselves in their potted biography as a genderqueer elf and political pervert.

They also blogged about their experience of a sexuality festival under their professional name. They are themselves trans, and I hope they always remain happy with their own personal decision to transition. However, are they able to maintain professional distance when considering the longterm interests of female children and female teens referred to the clinic?

blog about festival

LGBTQ people are born rebels, explorers and pioneers. Coming Out is an act of self-affirmation in defiance of HUGE homophobia in the world, and five decades of law reform and changing attitudes in some places has not changed that. Coming Out is an act of rebellion against the norms of the world that shows the authentic drive within to be Who We Are is stronger than the idiocy and prejudice that exists around homo, bi and trans-sexuality.

For a number of years I have been vocal about my feelings against gender specific spaces. Not spaces such as women only refuges, but single sex workshops or held spaces that are specifically designed to explore, develop or discover one’s masculinity or femininity in an exclusive and essentialist manner. However, more recently I have come to think that it is not so much the spaces specifically that I am against, but the way in which these spaces are set up.

I have attended a variety of sexuality/Tantra festivals over the years, which more often than not have some kind of ‘men only’ and ‘women only’ sessions throughout the programme. I never wished to attend the women’s only sessions, yet I felt ambivalent around my presence in the men only spaces. Even in the more heteronormative workshops there tended to be some controversy and much discussion about these spaces; particularly how men and women were defined. Were the spaces about exploring sex, bodies, gender, identity, stereotypes, expression or something else? If the purpose was to explore identity, and not sex, then could a woman who wished to explore her masculinity attend the man’s space? The answer was always no. These were spaces created by excluding others, by those in power deciding if a person was allowed to attend, telling people they were not welcome based on criteria that has been set by a culture of oppression.

As the women connected with mother earth and the men growled and stamped around the room, those of us ‘gender rejects’ sat in the smoking cabin and criticised the way the spaces had been set up. At the same time part of me wanted to be ‘one of the boys’ and be allowed into the club of masculinity. I wanted that part of me to be validated by the process of simply being allowed into the room. Yet at the same time I did not want to be part of a club that excluded people like me.

As testosterone has now taken hold of my body my membership of this club is often assumed. I am positioned as a man by most new people I meet and thus given membership through their perception. I therefore no longer have to ask ‘are trans guys allowed in this space?’ but simply turn up. Yet I still feel ambivalent about my presence in men only spaces and the aspects of my old self, and my politics, that I may be betraying if I enter.

During the summer I attended the Queer Spirit festival, a festival for queer people to celebrate sexuality, spiritually, ritual and communities. When reading the program, I noticed that there was a session for ‘masculine identified people’. This was in stark contrast to the spaces I had come into contact with before. An ‘opt in’ space, where the individual can decide for themselves whether they wish to be part of such a space rather than the larger group excluding those who they feel do not meet some culturally oppressive criteria.

I felt myself being drawn to the session, despite the blurb about it being rather vague and I couldn’t really tell what it was about. My next question to myself was as to whether I was really ‘man enough’ to attend. I do not think of myself as a man, though I often enjoy being called a boy. I strongly connect with the term genderqueer and on occasions I will refer to myself as trans masculine, thus I decided that I was indeed ‘man enough’, or possibly ‘masculine enough’ to attend.
I entered the session and quietly sat down. Just before the session began two younger faces peeked around the door, “Can we come in?” one asked in a soft unbroken voice.
A variety of versions of “If you identify as a man you are welcome here” answered back. “We are both trans guys” the unbroken voice replied. “Then yes, come on in”. The two young men entered the space and joined the circle.

It turned out that the session involved a variety of exercises looking at touch and consent, some similar to ones that I had done before. [bold mine] Out of a total of 18 participants, four of us were trans which seemed to make no difference to any of the cis men there. The workshop ended with a discussion about how the group had found the session. As the young man with the unbroken voice said how important it had been for him to be welcomed into such a space I felt tears well up in my eyes. Now several years into my physical transition I can look back and remember how important it was for me to find role models, both cis and trans men, who connected with a kind of masculinity that I found myself drawn to, yet opportunities of this kind had felt few and far between. In hearing how important the space had been for that young man I felt proud that I had been there with him. I felt grateful to the other men who had also been there, who had made the session a welcoming space for all of us to be in together.

As I reflect on my position about gender specific spaces I believe that it has changed over time. It is not so much the existence of them that I stand against, but rather how they are set up and who gets to dictate group membership. Who gets to decide who belongs and who doesn’t? Who performs their gender ‘well enough’ to be granted permission to enter? Who defines how these ideas of gender are constructed? It is the power in this exclusivity that I stand against; a power that exists in day to day culture which is harmful and oppressive to all of us, irrespective of our gender. Instead, I stand for spaces that are ‘opt in’, where power is placed in the individual and one gets to decide for themselves whether they belong, or even if they wish to belong at all. Spaces that are set up to be welcoming and supportive, inclusive and based on self-defined and self-constructed identities. Spaces that have the power to be healing, affirming and nurturing. Those are spaces of which I am proud to belong.

ArabellaScott · 23/10/2022 13:41

I stand for spaces that are ‘opt in’, where power is placed in the individual and one gets to decide for themselves whether they belong, or even if they wish to belong at all

Well, that's lovely. But what about the other people sharing spaces with you, Mx genderqueer elf?

Do these people have no concept of what living in society actually entails?

ArabellaScott · 23/10/2022 13:44

(My point is that yes, some spaces/situations exclude people. This is why I can't volunteer at a primary school without a DBS check. The power isn't placed in me as an individual, and I don't get to decide if I can 'belong' in any space I fancy occupying, because we have this thing called safeguarding. I would have expected a health care professional working with children/young people to understand this pretty thoroughly, tbh).

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/10/2022 13:44

Do these people have no concept of what living in society actually entails?
Let alone taking any responsibility for ensuring that children are able to grow safely in society without falling into the clutches of adults seeking to sexualise them, engage them in age inappropriate behaviour and worse.

nilsmousehammer · 23/10/2022 13:46

Who gets to decide who belongs and who doesn’t? Who performs their gender ‘well enough’ to be granted permission to enter?

Yes that would all be lovely in theory if it went both ways. But it doesn't. I'm sure the writer would feel they very definitely get to decide that females who say they don't have a gender don't get to belong. That females who need privacy, or single sex spaces for their own inclusion and access needs to be recognised too, don't belong and shouldn't be granted permission to enter.

Which makes it not values based, but a lot of specious wankery. Indulgence in self important consideration of the wonder of them, that doesn't work once it leaves their head and what they want and expect the world and people around them to provide. The writer is only arguing and throwing words around to destroy other people's boundaries preventing them doing exactly what they want and to justify to the writerself that they can ignore the voice of their conscience. Which they have or they wouldn't need to wang on arguing with it like this.

And then you have to root it in the evidence, increasing daily, of these views coming alongside a lack of awareness and capacity for appropriate boundaries and behaviour towards others, such as involving non consenting others. Shouting about inclusion and kindness while excluding in exceptionally unkind and cruel and uncaring terms. It's all about The Wonder of Me. All the time. With a hell of lot of sexual appropriacy all mixed up in it. And yes, it's noticable how that sexual background turns up again. And again. And again.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/10/2022 14:03

it's noticable how that sexual background turns up again. And again. And again.

Interesting that all the charities determined to "educate" our children about sex and sexuality are completely silent about safeguarding breaches. As each safeguarding scandal is uncovered (paedophiles, porn obsessions, flashing, inappropriate online content for children and worse) not one organisation ever speaks out.

Silence from Stonewall, GIRES, Gendered Intelligence, Global Butterflies or the organisations involved (Gendered Intelligence, Mermaids etc). No reassurance that safeguarding is a priority, no assurance that all their staff have credible enhanced DBS checks, no standards / boundaries about personal behaviour required from those working directly with children.

Which inevitably raises the question about why? Why won't they say this is wrong? What would be revealed about their staff / representatives / trustees if someone looked?

Why are they unable / unwilling to prioritise safeguarding children despite being so keen on talking to children about sex and sexuality? Because this is the connection between the emergence of all these little "trans" children and fragile mentally unwell teenage girls wanting to change sex:

Cynical self invested adults / groups with an agenda and no boundaries.

TheKeatingFive · 23/10/2022 14:49

I stand for spaces that are ‘opt in’, where power is placed in the individual and one gets to decide for themselves whether they belong, or even if they wish to belong at all

Well that all sounds lovely.

But not for an acquaintance of mine, who suffered a violent rape and now struggles with the presence of men generally. If men are 'opting in' to her intimate spaces, that triggers panic attacks in her. Meaning she has no choice but 'opt out'.

She'd love to belong to regular day to day society, but under suggestions like yours, she wouldn't be able to.

Is she just collateral damage in your lovely plan?

Swipe left for the next trending thread