Smacking DD 5

[FluffyFluffMonster]

My DD who is 5 has been hit today while I was in the shower. Her grandmother (not related) hit her leaving a red mark, GM said dd was wrapping curtains around herself and she was scared she would hang herself so hit her! GM is actually my eldest DD grandmother but is amazing with youngest and treats her like her own. DD has an amazing relationship with her, adores her. We are only a little family with not much support or involvement from other family. This isn't about me I would stop contact in an instant but because my dd adores GM I don't know what to do? I'm 100% against hitting! I told GM we don't hit in this house and she did say sorry and she was scared which is why she did it! I'm actually ill currently and not thinking clearly!

Thinking about it I'm not sure but I think it might be more traumatic to have someone you love suddenly disappear from your life than to have a smack so I wouldn't stop her seeing your DD.

I was slapped plenty as a child, at home and school which wasn't unusual in the 50s, I don't feel traumatised by that at all but my uncle dying suddenly when I was five was very traumatic and I have always had a fear of people just disappearing which I think dates from that. I know this is crazy but when my kids hit their teens I told all of them that if they wanted to cut me off to tell me but don't just go off as I wouldn't be able to cope with them disappearing. I think that is trauma.

There’s more than one type of trauma. I can’t imagine what it’s like to go into school every day and know that you might be hit for any reason at all. I’d certainly find that traumatic.

Well actually yeah, our adult population is rather fucked in the head. Lots of depression, anxiety, self loathing, low self esteem, lack of self control, alcohol and drug dependency.

Children may seem worse behaved than previous generations, but we're not raising children, we're raising adults. Perhaps these future generations will grow into more mentally-healthy well-rounded people who respect themselves and others.

A person advocating hitting defenceless children saying "my parents hit me and turned out alright" did, in fact not turn out alright.

The discipline of choice when I was a kid was smack, and I smacked my own children. Looking back! I wouldn't do it now, nor I think would my parents, but it is interesting to note how well behaved I was, and my kids too.
In this case, I doubt that one smacked bottom will traumatise the child, but the mother's over reaction might. How about just explaining to Grandma that these days we don't smack, and to the kid that Grandma made a mistake, that's how she was disciplined, but that it won't happen again. Then move on.

It is though.

The very nature of this specific punishment is that it removes the child from social support and isolates them either as punishment or to enforce space to 'think about what they've done', whether or not they're capable of that yet.

Imagine if you had a horrible day, came home, were really upset and got into an argument with your partner, and they told you that your raised voice was unacceptable and you now must go sit in the bedroom alone for a period of time decided by them. Off you go, come on. Sit there and think about what you did, until the timer runs out.

Just imagine. You might find the idea hilarious but thankfully plenty of people have realised it's an outdated, ineffective and frankly cruel parenting tactic. There are worse things out there of course, it's preferable to assault or being starved, but it's still not helpful or appropriate.

I suspect quite a few of the people laughing along in your imaginary office recognise this and don't do it with their own kids/remember it being done to them, but feel unable to speak up against the tide of adults all laughing at someone pointing out why the naughty step is cruel. Doesn't sound like a very safe or supportive imaginary environment.

I liked to let them tantrum. You know, physically stop them doing it then while they were angry just leave them to tantrum and when they were done just move on or address the thing depending on what it was.

When my kids were little I used a lot of just moving them but not naughty steps or time outs. I did try time outs with one but the reaction.... Jesus. The level of frustration and anger. They hated it so much it seemed like a nuclear option.

From what you said I envisioned you talking to them while they were still in tantrum mode.

To be honest my response is probably a knee jerk reaction to somebody saying you shouldn't discipline kids. It just seems so crazy but, you know, maybe it isn't.

It isn’t. It’s treating them like they’re actual human beings. But you’re not alone, as I said - loads of people on mumsnet have that same knee jerk reaction.

Hm. I would be really upset if someone hit my child, especially hard enough for a red mark to show. I agree, that I wouldn't cut contact with her. Especially if your DD adores her. But definitely be firm with her and tell her if this happens again, she will not be allowed to be around your children.

I was smacked as a child and don't feel (too) traumatised by it but I don't slap my children at all. A lot of the time it seems to me that when children are slapped it's either because the adults have run out of patience or have let the child's behaviour get them to a point where they feel so angry they have to use physical violence. That's the adults problem, not the child's. There are many other ways to discipline.

I think you see it more with teens. All that "Take this off them" "ground them". Like... it just doesn't work with most. Plus do people not remember being a teen?

Exactly.

60s child. We were smacked by our parents but they had an absolute rule no one else did. We spent a huge amount of time with actual Victorian grandparents and they never, ever hit us. Not once.

I've actually had a memory of "twirling" myself up in full length curtains at a similar age and my grandmother laughing as she extricated me and saying "Don't do that, you'll bring them down". Slapping a small child hard enough to leave a mark is wrong (I don't actually think smacking is right full stop) but also utterly disproportionate to what happened and I have doubts that it was actually a fear reaction. OK, she's apologised, which is something, but I would be making it totally clear that it must never happen again and keeping a close eye on for the foreseeable.

@OriginalUsername3

A person advocating hitting defenceless children saying "my parents hit me and turned out alright" did, in fact not turn out alright

Can you explain what you mean by 'did not turn out alright?' Do you have any evidence to prove that this is the case?

My children were smacked when they were toddlers. Both have grown up to be resilient, motivated and well balanced adults. Both have families of their own, and one runs his own highly successful company. In what possible sense did they 'not turn out alright? Or is it just because you say so?

I'm totally against hitting children however she's apologised and said she wouldn't do it again, I would give her another chance

I have utterly no doubt in what you say. But. I bet if what you are saying is true then you also did a whole host of other good parenting too. I think the idea is to make it socially unacceptable for all because unfortunately many cannot be trusted.

Well we knew the rules, teachers didn't just randomly decide to hit you. You sat down, did what you were told, worked to the best of your ability, didn't hurt anyone else. It was pretty easy to understand.

I went to a Catholic school where corporal punishment was normal, family moved and the local Catholic school was full so for a year I went to another school where they didn't hit you, went back to Catholic school where we would be caned. The school where I was unhappy to the point of deep depression, I would just sit and sob for no reason, wouldn't play or join in was the school where they didn't hit you. I suppose everyone is different but I found the being shouted at, being forced to stand at the front of the class when frequently I didn't even know what I was being punished for was actually worse.

If I look back at my 3 primary schools the one I have fondest memories of is the one where I was caned. I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist so I have no idea why that is, obviously I didn't like being caned but I have so many happy memories of that school and hardly any memory of being caned with the exception of being caned for a spelling mistake which I think made me question spellings and maybe that is my trauma.

I've always hated the idea of the naughty step and never used it. I think it is more cruel than a quick slap, not a beating/punch/thrashing which are very different but a quick slap and it's over with. I prefer removing something so with GS who is living with me I will remove lifts. He's a big strong lad and if he persists with something he's been asked not to do or refuses to do something he's asked to do I just warn him no lifts for a week which won't do him any harm. It is very effective but all children are different so it won't work for them all.

Do they hit their kids?

It is totally different, but to me the difference is that another adult might have some chance at defending themselves, whereas a child is being attacked and has no chance of protecting themselves whatsoever. Discipline should never, ever involve violence and loving parents do not hit their child. Violence and love do not belong in the same picture.

I haven't read the full thread so sorry if already mentioned but how did your daughter react to being smacked?? Does she ever look after her alone? What if this isn't the first time? :(

@Pumperthepumper No they don't, because in today's society it's seen as undesirable. In my day it was acceptable, both at home and in schools. Both ways can work if the child is disciplined properly, and not brought up with with wishy washy 'please don't do that, darling,' or by bad behaviour being ignored.

I’d rather be a wishy washy parent than a violent one. So if it wasn’t for societal pressure you think they’d hit them?

You realise there is a middle ground between wishy washy don’t do that and physical violence against a child, yes?

Well, this is something I could forgive once. And I would tell Gran that. She’s used her get out of jail free card, she hits a child again, then that’s it no contact.

I would probably phone the police to model to my daughter that she should do that when assaulted. I would be very clear with my child that it is assault, it is illegal and that we do not tolerate any kind of violence no matter who the perpetrator is.

I would definitely not allow any unsupervised contact again and would think very carefully around going NC.

You seriously think the police would be interested?

Total overreaction and probably not helpful for the child.