Page 8 | MIL is being a bit selfish

cherrytreelanecherries · 2022-10-14T09:02:14+00:00

My father in law died suddenly a year ago. He was only mid sixties so it was quite a shock. My mother in law has struggled, understandably. She had only recently retired, has no other family apart from my DH, only has three close friends. She also lives rurally and doesn’t drive (FIL did all the driving). She is very lonely and quite depressed I think, we’ve started to have tentative conversations about her trying volunteering, going to a bereavement group etc but she just says it’s too soon. We used to host Christmas for both sides of the family every year. We live several hours drive from both families (in opposite directions - helpful!) But my grandma is 96 and she’s too unwell to make the journey to our house this year. So that nobody has to be on their own, we came up with a plan that my grandma would spend Christmas Day at my parent’s house and we would go to MIL with our two young kids. However, MIL doesn’t want to do this. She says she will find it too painful to decorate the house or have Christmas dinner (we’ve offered to cook) and she just wants to be on her own all day if she can’t come to ours. My parents have said she can stay at theirs and they will host but she’s refused that too. I’ve offered that we rent a holiday cottage instead so Christmas Day doesn’t actually have to be in her house with all the memories but she won’t do that either. My grandma feels so bad that she’s causing my MIL to spend Christmas alone that she is now saying we should go back to plan A and have Christmas at our house, even though she’s really not well enough to make the journey and I’m worried about her. Basically, I’ve tried to be patient with MIL and I know she is devastated but I think on this she’s being a bit selfish. AIBU.

ZeroFuchsGiven · 14/10/2022 11:49

Gymnopedie · 14/10/2022 11:48

DP died suddenly a few days before Christmas last year. I won't be putting up any decorations, I can't face it. I will be going to my brother's but it will be quiet.

DP was my soulmate too, almost everything you've said about your parents' relationship was mirrored in ours. I fully understand MIL when she's bored and lonely but doesn't want to get involved in volunteering etc. because the one person who could make you not lonely isn't there anymore and never will be again. It isn't a simple binary situation.

I understand that you feel you're in a difficult place with both families. You feel that you have to let down either MIL or your own family and it's a hard choice. But you're going to have to bite the bullet and make it.

In all that though, please don't label MIL selfish for not immediately falling in with the plans that would mean you don't have to choose.

Hadtocomment · 14/10/2022 11:49

You aren't being unreasonable, you sound more like you have a lot of emotional weight being put on you and are trying to juggle lots of demands and people. If MIL is this down, perhaps you're finding it hard to face the idea of just Christmas at yours with her and YOU would like a change or a holiday cottage or even to go to hers. And perhaps you don't want to have to go and fetch her by car also which will be a big trip on top of everything else. I totally understand why you feel overwhelmed and fed up. Everyone talking about bereavement are right and fair, but they don't seem to take into account the difficulty of the people around as well. To me, she sounds not just depressed but hugely anxious. I wonder if this is why she won't go to a holiday cottage because the fear of the unknown is too much. Also that she won't get the train. Or go to your parents. It is not going to get better by avoiding every single thing she is frightened of. But I can understand her and the depression is perhaps making anxiety (which she might have had before) much much worse as she will be low and without energy to try and battle it. It can feel like a battle taking on anxiety. In a way anxiety/depression can seem kind of selfish. But understanding more about how she might be feeling might make it clearer that what seems like a making a bit of an effort maybe feels like an impossible battle for her right now. I'm not saying she should just have everything rotating about her, because that's not even good for people who are in a state. But maybe you all have to think in more baby steps and also allow her to take more responsibility.

The question of what to do is another matter. Perhaps a proper sit down talk and seeing if perhaps she might open up a little about it might allow you to find a few strategies that she might be more open to? Your suggestions all seem to require her to have quite a bit of energy and confidence to get out there which she doesn't sound like she has at the moment. Is there a way of finding smaller steps that could start to build a bit of confidence and lessen fear and anxiety without it being such big daunting things initially? I'm not sure what but starting driving again if depressed and anxious does sound like a big step. Maybe someone going for a day trip or a short train ride with her is more doable than expecting her to do a whole train journey straight off on her own? I recognise this is a very difficult ask if you live quite far from her. It's the kind of thing maybe certain sorts of therapists might be able to do. Like those that help people get over phobias. It needs to try and keep the anxiety under a certain threshold whilst still challenging it. Perhaps if your DH is going there anyway instead of just picking her up, could he come back with her on the train? Or stay a while and do a few trips on public transport with her (with something really nice at the end to make it worthwhile?)

On your christmas issue, it sounds like you'd like to get away yourself. It sounds a bit grotty but, with the idea that this is a particularly difficult year where you seem sure she doesn't want to be alone, what about your DH going to see his mum for a couple of days and you going to your parents to see your grandmother? Then he could either join you or you all go back to yours and have a relax for the rest of the xmas hols together? Otherwise, decide what it is you want to do, invite others if you wish and let them take responsibility and decide for themselves whether they want to come or whether they can come or not. it sounds like you are quite dutiful and did a big family christmas last year, so you can always do a christmas on your own this year if you want to just have a rest!

woodhill · 14/10/2022 11:49

I agree with you Pink

crumpetswithjam · 14/10/2022 11:49

Gazelda · 14/10/2022 11:44

I started reading this thread full of frustration at your attitude OP.

The more you posted, the more I understand how worried you are for MIL and how frustrated you feel that she's not responding to your practical suggestions.

However, I think you are probably a logical, solver type. She doesn't want 'solving' at the moment. She wants things the way they were. In the meantime, she's staying with what's comfortable.

I don't think many of the readers of this thread understand why you simply can't invite her to yours for Christmas, while your parents spend the day with Gran. If we can't understand it, then MIL possibly is in the same boat and wishes you'd just invite her to yours as you've done for many years previously. It would feel comfortable and familiar for her

I really don't get why you don't understand that from an outsider, this is simply a no-brainer!

But whatever the background that makes that impossible, I sympathise for you being in this position.

Yup. You can't solve grief, it's a complex beast. Everybody does it differently.

Original poster

cherrytreelanecherries · 14/10/2022 11:51

Puffalicious · 14/10/2022 11:43

That PP is being nasty!

She's still young, too young to be scared of going on a train- what on Earth is there to be scared of? And to answer another PP who said someone over 60 won't learn to drive- my mam passed her test just after her 60th birthday, and said it was the best thing she ever did for her independence (the generation who were pretty much told it was the men who drove).

I know what grief can do: my dad was utterly devastated when my mam died. They were together 55 years and he was totally lost. He also refused counselling. I cannot imagine the pressure your DH feels being an only one: I have brothers and sisters and it was stressful enough. Dad did get out and about eventually (he disliked coming home to an empty house, so avoided going out. Strange but true) but he still sucked the joy out of most things for a long time. Eventually my sister snapped one day and told him he didn't have the trump card on grief, we were all grieving and we had to help each other. For a man who didn't treat mam that well at times, it was frustrating. I loved him but he was a difficult man: perhaps your DH us the same?

She can't continue to affect your family with her grief, she just can't. Many will say I'm harsh, but you have lives too.

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Thank you, that means a lot.

The irony is that my FIL became very depressed after his own dad died and it was actually MIL who snapped one day in a similar way to your sister. That completely turned things around apparently and FIL started living life again after that. I remember MIL telling me the story but I wouldn’t dare bring it up with her now.

You’re right that the burden on my DH is huge and if I’m honest I am getting annoyed that she can’t see that. She recently said to him “I suppose this is hard for you too, in a way” and I had to leave the room as I was so frustrated.

She is actually a very kind person and I never had any issues with her but her grief is colouring everything. I know that’s nobody’s fault and it’s to be expected etc but it’s just hard.

OP posts:

Dumbledormer · 14/10/2022 11:51

I’m not sure if I’m missing something but I think the easiest scenario is to have a chat with your mum and dad and say “as you know MIL is still struggling with the loss of FIL and will be coming to ours on Christmas Day as normal. Of course, you both are invited plus Granny but I appreciate Granny is getting older and might find the journey a bit much. On balance, it might be better if you host Granny at yours this year and we will come up to visit over the Christmas period/in the new year. If Granny insists she is well enough to travel then of course you are all welcome but I’ll leave that for you to decide. No pressure either way”

I know families can be difficult but this seems more complicated that it needs to be

howshouldibehave · 14/10/2022 11:53

I’m not sure if I’m missing something but I think the easiest scenario is to have a chat with your mum and dad and say “as you know MIL is still struggling with the loss of FIL and will be coming to ours on Christmas Day as normal. Of course, you both are invited plus Granny but I appreciate Granny is getting older and might find the journey a bit much. On balance, it might be better if you host Granny at yours this year and we will come up to visit over the Christmas period/in the new year. If Granny insists she is well enough to travel then of course you are all welcome but I’ll leave that for you to decide. No pressure either way”

That is perfect

AryaStarkWolf · 14/10/2022 11:53

Dumbledormer · 14/10/2022 11:51

I’m not sure if I’m missing something but I think the easiest scenario is to have a chat with your mum and dad and say “as you know MIL is still struggling with the loss of FIL and will be coming to ours on Christmas Day as normal. Of course, you both are invited plus Granny but I appreciate Granny is getting older and might find the journey a bit much. On balance, it might be better if you host Granny at yours this year and we will come up to visit over the Christmas period/in the new year. If Granny insists she is well enough to travel then of course you are all welcome but I’ll leave that for you to decide. No pressure either way”

I know families can be difficult but this seems more complicated that it needs to be

Exactly. Any reasonable person would be perfectly fine with all that

ABBAsnumberonefan · 14/10/2022 11:55

I think I’d have MIL round on Xmas day and go to parents on Boxing Day or something.

Autumflower · 14/10/2022 11:56

My mum was the same when her dh died .
she lived alone after his death for 12 years
every Easter ,summer ,Christmas,birthday ,we offered to do a 12 hour round trip to pick her up ,and the same to take her back.
she refused every time
yet not happily
she used it as a stick to beat us with ,saying how it hurts so much on Christmas Day seeing neighbours have visitors..how she was always alone at new year .
most birthdays I did manage to get up to visit ,but if she could put me off she did .
12 hour round trip for us to visit on Christmas Day .
she never invited us to hers ,but her flat was to small for our family of 6 to come for Christmas anyway .
there was nothing more I could of done ,she constantly moaned she was alone ,yet refused to move house ,and 9 times out of 10 was busy when we offered to visit .
you can’t help some people op

Original poster

cherrytreelanecherries · 14/10/2022 11:56

Hadtocomment · 14/10/2022 11:49

You aren't being unreasonable, you sound more like you have a lot of emotional weight being put on you and are trying to juggle lots of demands and people. If MIL is this down, perhaps you're finding it hard to face the idea of just Christmas at yours with her and YOU would like a change or a holiday cottage or even to go to hers. And perhaps you don't want to have to go and fetch her by car also which will be a big trip on top of everything else. I totally understand why you feel overwhelmed and fed up. Everyone talking about bereavement are right and fair, but they don't seem to take into account the difficulty of the people around as well. To me, she sounds not just depressed but hugely anxious. I wonder if this is why she won't go to a holiday cottage because the fear of the unknown is too much. Also that she won't get the train. Or go to your parents. It is not going to get better by avoiding every single thing she is frightened of. But I can understand her and the depression is perhaps making anxiety (which she might have had before) much much worse as she will be low and without energy to try and battle it. It can feel like a battle taking on anxiety. In a way anxiety/depression can seem kind of selfish. But understanding more about how she might be feeling might make it clearer that what seems like a making a bit of an effort maybe feels like an impossible battle for her right now. I'm not saying she should just have everything rotating about her, because that's not even good for people who are in a state. But maybe you all have to think in more baby steps and also allow her to take more responsibility.

The question of what to do is another matter. Perhaps a proper sit down talk and seeing if perhaps she might open up a little about it might allow you to find a few strategies that she might be more open to? Your suggestions all seem to require her to have quite a bit of energy and confidence to get out there which she doesn't sound like she has at the moment. Is there a way of finding smaller steps that could start to build a bit of confidence and lessen fear and anxiety without it being such big daunting things initially? I'm not sure what but starting driving again if depressed and anxious does sound like a big step. Maybe someone going for a day trip or a short train ride with her is more doable than expecting her to do a whole train journey straight off on her own? I recognise this is a very difficult ask if you live quite far from her. It's the kind of thing maybe certain sorts of therapists might be able to do. Like those that help people get over phobias. It needs to try and keep the anxiety under a certain threshold whilst still challenging it. Perhaps if your DH is going there anyway instead of just picking her up, could he come back with her on the train? Or stay a while and do a few trips on public transport with her (with something really nice at the end to make it worthwhile?)

On your christmas issue, it sounds like you'd like to get away yourself. It sounds a bit grotty but, with the idea that this is a particularly difficult year where you seem sure she doesn't want to be alone, what about your DH going to see his mum for a couple of days and you going to your parents to see your grandmother? Then he could either join you or you all go back to yours and have a relax for the rest of the xmas hols together? Otherwise, decide what it is you want to do, invite others if you wish and let them take responsibility and decide for themselves whether they want to come or whether they can come or not. it sounds like you are quite dutiful and did a big family christmas last year, so you can always do a christmas on your own this year if you want to just have a rest!

This is really interesting, anxiety never occurred to me before but actually that could be what it is. I don’t really know is there’s any way we could help her to overcome it though, maybe we just wait and accept that she may never really feel ready.

OP posts:

LizzieSiddal · 14/10/2022 11:57

It takes most people about two years to get over the absolute shock and despair you feel when a loved one dies very suddenly. I have personal experience of this and it really does feel like you’ve been hit by a bus, in order to get through the day you need to focus on what’s in front of you, your brain cannot handle doing anything new or making plans etc.

I do understand that’s frustrating for you as you want her to be happy, but unless you can bring back her DH, for the moment that isn’t going to happen, so stop being so hard on yourself.

I hope you can find a solution that does suit everyone, I think you’re going to have to be quite firm with your parents, say you’re having MIL over Xmas (as she’s not in a good place) and will then come to them for a few days.

Ralphlol · 14/10/2022 11:59

@Puffalicious I’m not being even remotely nasty

your DM died. Did you have the headspace while grieving in the months afterwards to pack up your whole house, clear it all out and sell it and set up a new home while going to a bereavement course and discussing your DM while also starting and learning about a new role and organisation and volunteering responsibility’s while also starting to drive again having not driven in years?

it’s ridiculous what @cherrytreelanecherries is expecting from her poor MIL. If it had been years then fine but it hasn’t.

TitInATrance · 14/10/2022 12:00

TeaStory · 14/10/2022 10:09

I don’t understand why you think she’s being selfish? She’s said what she wants and seems happy enough for you to do what you want. If anything, you’re being selfish by trying to control everyone’s Christmas (2.5 months in advance!).

This. As a widow (although since remarried and divorced) you are being totally unreasonable. I really don’t want to be forced into other people’s Xmas arrangements and would so much rather they let me be.

KTKismet · 14/10/2022 12:02

I don't get pp saying that MIL should get the status quo, when it is potentially the OPs last Christmas with her Granny.

I would say to MIL, I appreciate that you would like it at ours but it isn't possible this year because of how frail my Granny is. I'm sure you'll appreciate the importance of spending as much time as we can with loved ones before they pass, with that in mind we will be at my parents this year with granny. They've invited you, but totally understand if you're not up to that. We will have you over for new year.

Of course they can't just have MIL at OPs house when every other year her parents and granny have also come. It would make them feel obligated or like they're missing out. I'm sure whichever of her parents mother granny is, will also be aware that this may be a last Christmas.

MILs grief does not take precedence over everyone and everything else, as harsh as that may sound.

PuffDragon12 · 14/10/2022 12:03

I have sympathy with you. I also have a family member who refuses to say what they would like to do (‘whatever suits you’ etc) and then says no to all suggestions. I end up feeling that I am being manipulated and controlled when I am trying to find a solution that works with the conflicting
wishes of various family members.

GG1986 · 14/10/2022 12:04

This post is a bit confusing... but I would have mil at yours, do dinner for her etc. Then your parents and grandmother stay at theres(makes sense as you said grandmother can't make the journey to yours anyway) then boxing day can't you go to your parents?

jannier · 14/10/2022 12:05

cherrytreelanecherries · 14/10/2022 10:29

I mean we can’t use that as an excuse for why it’s best to have Christmas apart.

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But the reason is your grandmas health that is the only thing that's changed Christmas at yours has always happened.

Original poster

cherrytreelanecherries · 14/10/2022 12:05

KTKismet · 14/10/2022 12:02

I don't get pp saying that MIL should get the status quo, when it is potentially the OPs last Christmas with her Granny.

I would say to MIL, I appreciate that you would like it at ours but it isn't possible this year because of how frail my Granny is. I'm sure you'll appreciate the importance of spending as much time as we can with loved ones before they pass, with that in mind we will be at my parents this year with granny. They've invited you, but totally understand if you're not up to that. We will have you over for new year.

Of course they can't just have MIL at OPs house when every other year her parents and granny have also come. It would make them feel obligated or like they're missing out. I'm sure whichever of her parents mother granny is, will also be aware that this may be a last Christmas.

MILs grief does not take precedence over everyone and everything else, as harsh as that may sound.

Thank you so much! You have completely understood the situation, I do see why others have found it confusing but I’m glad I’m not totally bonkers. This is exactly what I meant.

OP posts:

Original poster

cherrytreelanecherries · 14/10/2022 12:07

PuffDragon12 · 14/10/2022 12:03

I have sympathy with you. I also have a family member who refuses to say what they would like to do (‘whatever suits you’ etc) and then says no to all suggestions. I end up feeling that I am being manipulated and controlled when I am trying to find a solution that works with the conflicting
wishes of various family members.

Yes this is it. I don’t think it’s consciously manipulative - she genuinely feels that saying “I don’t mind” is the most helpful thing she can say - but it actually makes things harder, not easier.

Additionally it’s very frustrating when someone says they don’t mind when they clearly do.

OP posts:

AryaStarkWolf · 14/10/2022 12:08

cherrytreelanecherries · 14/10/2022 12:05

Thank you so much! You have completely understood the situation, I do see why others have found it confusing but I’m glad I’m not totally bonkers. This is exactly what I meant.

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I think maybe you should have been clearer in what you wanted in your OP, you want to go to your parents house this Christmas because it's potentially your Grandma's last, is that right? If you had just said that instead of all the confusing options it would have been easier to sympathise with your situation and you wouldn't have sounded unreasonable

Namenic · 14/10/2022 12:09

I really don’t agree with @Ralphlol . I think OP and DH have tried to do stuff for MIL - like drive her over to their home, go on holiday with her. It’s not MIL’s fault that she’s apprehensive about big changes. But it’s not OP and DH’s fault either that MIL seems lonely (evident from her comments that she doesn’t actually want xmas alone). It’s just a tough situation - living a long way apart. I think OP should keep offering to have her over and go on holiday etc, but not feel guilty if it doesn’t seem enough for MIL.

Here’s what I would do in your situation @cherrytreelanecherries . MIL comes to OPs house a few days before xmas and stays over. On xmas day kids open presents with MIL and have a brunch(eg 10am). Then OP and kids drive 2hrs to granny/parents for xmas early dinner (around 4pm). DH stays with MIL. Turkey and whatever with granny/parents, more presents for kids. Then drive back home at 8pm (or stay the night and go back on Boxing Day). The only downside is no alcohol for driver - and a fair bit of driving if return on xmas day itself.

Original poster

cherrytreelanecherries · 14/10/2022 12:10

AryaStarkWolf · 14/10/2022 12:08

I think maybe you should have been clearer in what you wanted in your OP, you want to go to your parents house this Christmas because it's potentially your Grandma's last, is that right? If you had just said that instead of all the confusing options it would have been easier to sympathise with your situation and you wouldn't have sounded unreasonable

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No not really, I wanted to find a solution where nobody felt left out and nobody felt they had to travel when they didn’t really want to.

However I can see that in attempting this I’ve just tied myself in knots 😂

OP posts:

Original poster

cherrytreelanecherries · 14/10/2022 12:11

Namenic · 14/10/2022 12:09

I really don’t agree with @Ralphlol . I think OP and DH have tried to do stuff for MIL - like drive her over to their home, go on holiday with her. It’s not MIL’s fault that she’s apprehensive about big changes. But it’s not OP and DH’s fault either that MIL seems lonely (evident from her comments that she doesn’t actually want xmas alone). It’s just a tough situation - living a long way apart. I think OP should keep offering to have her over and go on holiday etc, but not feel guilty if it doesn’t seem enough for MIL.

Here’s what I would do in your situation @cherrytreelanecherries . MIL comes to OPs house a few days before xmas and stays over. On xmas day kids open presents with MIL and have a brunch(eg 10am). Then OP and kids drive 2hrs to granny/parents for xmas early dinner (around 4pm). DH stays with MIL. Turkey and whatever with granny/parents, more presents for kids. Then drive back home at 8pm (or stay the night and go back on Boxing Day). The only downside is no alcohol for driver - and a fair bit of driving if return on xmas day itself.

Interesting idea - I never thought about the option of splitting Christmas Day itself - that could work!

No alcohol is a downside of course but probably the least of our worries right now.

OP posts:

jannier · 14/10/2022 12:12

cherrytreelanecherries · 14/10/2022 11:18

So what are we meant to do in the meantime, just let her sit in the house alone, literally wasting away and crying and getting worse by the day?

I’m not saying I understand because I’ve never lost my husband. But it doesn’t feel right to basically just sit back and let her reach rock bottom and not even try to at least suggest some things which could help.

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Be there listen if she talks, be gentle short walks, your company without major social events, she may never have been a confident or happy driver grief looses more confidence. Pushing her to leave her marital home during the period that all advice is not to make major decisions isn't fair, its the place she was happy with her husband full of memories and she's being asked to leave it all including any neighbours who may say hello or keep an eye and move to a strange place probably dumping items that hold meaning becouse its smaller making decisions shes not up to and with strangers next door who will ask questions shes not ready to answer.
Have you contacted cruise bereavement or age concern for their advice?