State vs independent school open days

[user55875537986543]

Please tell me if I’m BU…

Looking at secondary schools. Have been to 3 independent school open mornings, 3 more to look at. Each school has sent an itinerary of the morning and a clear email so we know what to expect (really helpful when deciding if the children should come or not - not all tours have activities for younger siblings but some do).

Also trying to look at two state options but they have one fixed open evening and that’s it. No flexibility. No option for a smaller tour mid week, no option to speak to a member of staff outside that one evening.

The state schools are over subscribed and so I understand that they don’t massively need to “sell” themselves. But the independent schools are massively oversubscribed too and yet are happy to make time for children and parents to work out which school is the best fit.

Also, all the independent schools have their open days on Saturdays. Which means that most parents can actually make it with some notice.

Just a bit pissed off and needed a rant. I absolutely cannot choose a school based on a rushed evening visit without the chance to ask questions properly.

I've worked in both.
The independents will go all out to get you to apply, taster sessions, several open events - there's no guarantee that your child will be given a place!
What do you expect from state run schools?

Oh and the promotional bags with the most desirable content, essentially branded to promote the school.
Look at the school, not the marketing - independents spend a fortune on marketing which state schools do not have the luxury of.

@youcantry I expect state schools to offer more than a 2-3 hour open evening once a year. I’d like at least one 30-60 minute tours/meetings in smaller groups each term. I’d also like the SENCO to be available to speak to a prospective parent for 10 minutes on the phone before school offers come out.

@youcantry I’m a state and an independent school parent. I am a veteran of independent school open days. Some of the flashiest open days have been at schools that I have discounted because I wasn’t convinced they were the best schools for our family. And not because the jute bags weren’t the right size (although they are often slightly too small to be any real use 🤣)

I think , if you attend a number of state school open evenings, you can get a feel for them in relation to one another. Which, in the context if a single event, are welcoming and helpful and well-run, and which are careless and off hand.

Equally, attending private school open events will enable internal comparisons within that sector.

Where it gets tricky is cross-sector comparison because, for lots of reasons including the underlying purpose of open events, the events are apples and oranges.

We got amazing school branded huge and beautiful teddy bears from one school once. My children both disliked their taster day there and I was also underwhelmed. The teddies were lovely though!

I think it isn’t reasonable to expect a SENCo to speak to every prospective parent at the ‘considering the school’ stage, though.

On average, about 14-15% of pupils in mainstream state secondaries are on the SEN register. For a school with, say, 240 intake that has 10 considering the school per place, that’s about 360 children - as opposed to the 36 who will be in the cohort that gets places. 36 x 15 minutes is a not- unreasonable 9 hours - 360 x 15 minutes is a less reasonable 90 hours!

If you have enough spaces on the form, apply anyway, and discuss provision in detail with the SENCo if you get in. My advice would be different for a child with a full EGCP or complex needs, of course, as they can name schools in a different way.

@cantkeepawayforever really fair point

Where I live we ( state school) do open mornings. I spent last Saturday in school from 9.30 until 1pm. No extra pay or time in lieu. Part of directed time. ( 21st year at this school, always done open days apart from 2020)

@flumposie thank you. The illusory Saturday morning open mornings do exist 😁

Illusive!!

Elusive, I think!

@cantkeepawayforever yes!!! Ha! My brain has shut down clearly.

For the vast, vast majority of secondary state schools there is no choice. There is the illusion of choice but in reality there are catchment areas for schools. If you live in the catchment area for the school then you go there. Otherwise you go to the school in the next catchment area over.

In a very few areas there might be two options but this is more rare.

Therefore for oversubscribed state schools there is a catchment area, and people living there will go to the school.

You are in an unusual position because you are choosing between state and private. Most people attending the school won't have a choice.

With the best will in the world schools do not have the time or resources to do this for every single parent.

@Dishwashersaurous it’s a faith school so children come from a fairly wide area.

But it's still a criteria . There's no real choice . Either you meet the criteria or you dont

@Dishwashersaurous of course. But we also have a state secondary that we are geographically in catchment for so we do have a “choice” of two state schools. Plus the independent schools which only have a catchment area of how far I’m prepared to travel (and entrance exams of course!)

I'd argue that if your child is disabled or has difficulty accessing education via a learning difficulty it is bloody reasonable to hope you can talk to SENCO to see if child would be accomodated/welcomed/tolerated/ignored.

I’m a secondary school teacher in a state school. We do one open evening for prospective Y7 students and their parents each year, and one for prospective Y12 students and their parents, plus one weekly after school meeting, 6 parents’ evenings and various extra-curricular clubs and trips, as well as doing all of the planning and assessment for our multiple classes each week - on top of the actual lessons we teach and the numerous phone calls and emails to parents we need to sort each each week.

We’re at breaking point. Just because some state schools offer additional open evenings, that doesn’t mean they should. And it definitely doesn’t mean we all should. Our workload is already unmanageable and teachers are leaving the profession in droves.

A local school did an open morning which is a good addition to an open day.

Well done SENCOs on making the children at the school their priority rather than spending 90 hrs talking to people who might send their child to the school. Even more so at this time of year, children in their first half term at the school will presumably be keeping the SENCO fully occupied.

I'd have thought looking at the website would give lots of information on how things work at the school.

There’s next to no info on Sen support on the website for most secondaries we are applying to

Exactly this.

OP - do you realise they are funded and resources very differently?!

One of the secondary schools I've worked in would have arranged an individual tour for you, and/or an appointment with the SENCO. Another one wouldn't have- due to their intake size and the demographic they served, you'd likely have as many as 500 parents wanting tours (not all of those students would get a place), and in a state school, it's simply not viable to organise this. At the other school, most parents were happy with the open evening (where we tried not to rush them and they could ask any questions they liked) and only around 20-30 parents would ask for separate tours, which is much more viable.

In the vast majority of state schools, teachers have a standard contract which limits the number of hours they can be directed to be in school- this includes any "trapped" time between when they finish teaching, and the start of events like open evening or parents evening. Logistically, there's often very little leeway once you've done an open evening for Y7, one for 6th form, maybe an options evening, plus parents evenings, and maybe one other evening event- e.g. a celebration evening (along with all the other things staff are directed to do, obviously). Most staff don't have the spare "directed time" to be asked to run tours after school, so the only people available to do this are usually those on the leadership pay scale (i.e. SLT), and realistically, they can only do so many tours.

In independent schools, staff contracts will likely specify x evenings, and x days of Saturday working etc, and their pay will be calculated accordingly. This may also be the case in FE in the state sector, too- usually FE lecturers aren't on a standard teacher contract.

It's also worth bearing in mind that state secondaries often struggle to recruit, especially in certain subjects, and teachers tend to value schools where not too many late evenings are required of them.

I do think it's a shame that the SENCOs won't at least arrange a phone call with you at this stage- and actually, that would make me wary- it suggests they're either overworked, or the schools aren't keen to recruit children with SEN. Or both.

I get the evening is inconvenient for you, and that's a real shame, and I understand that having other commitments makes things very difficult. But I do also think your expectations of the state sector are unrealistic, and this might be a bit of a sign that it's not right for you.