What can we as parents do to stop our sons turning into the men we read about on mumsnet daily?

[Watermelon46]

…….or to teach our daughters not to put up with any of this.

It seems (from posts on here) that so many children are living in toxic environments, with fathers who are man children who are used to their own way and throw their toys out of the pram if they don’t get it, and mothers who appear trapped in this environment.

I see and hear elements of this behaviour from grown men regularly with my friends and my own family, including ourselves, so know it’s not just made up on here.

What can we do to break this cycle?

The key difference is that I don’t view women leaving as a negative. You do. And that says it all.

I have no wish to engage with you further. You’ve made your stance very, very clear.

@Lunar270

I don’t care at all if you cringed. I’m not some old guy wants to feel good about myself but mindlessly agreeing with women as though that’s some moral victory.
Its great that other types of Moses stereotypically feminine men are more accepted now but if your not a more typical (mentally) man then you just wouldn’t get it.

@JustLyra

Well obviously if women are leaving at a much greater rate than men it’s a negative because societally it’s creates mismatched wants and expectations around family. Having men expecting to be left by women isn’t going to be a good thing - or at least it would require drastic changes in law if that was the expectation going foward.

The problem you have is associating people who don't agree with your narrow world view with being feminine.

I don't recognise your manly take on manhood as it's just a bit basic and you're clearly not able to elucidate.

Come on, enlighten us. What makes you more manly than me? And what does being a man mean to you? You're happy to come on here and tell women what the problem is and why men are so disenfranchised but you can't explain what it is you want to be and how modern women are stopping you.

Is it that you want to eat KFC at home with your bare hands in your underpants? I'm intrigued.

Another behaviour we can address with our sons, when anyone but particularly a woman, asks you to stop engaging with them be it in real life or online, you disengage and leave them alone immediately. You do not keep at them. It doesn’t matter if it’s as serious as stalking and threatening, or deliberately interacting online and derailing womens discussions amongst themselves on matters of importance to them in order to get attention and stop them discussing what they want. If you’re asked to stop by a girl or woman, STOP IMMEDIATELY. For our daughters, if a boy or man won’t leave you alone when asked, that is a major red flag and a sign of aggression; Disengage, ignore, block and seek assistance where appropriate.

@Lunar270

Like I said you just wouldn’t get it if your more comfortable in this forum. It would be pointless discussing with you.
But in all seriousness I’ve just tried to offer my opinion (which can easily be ignored like any other here) and look at the veiled response below calling it aggressive.

I mean how can there be any kind of understanding or healthy dialogue when that is the reaction to a difference of opinion? That’s what drives polarisation.

My third suggestion, would be to help boys to learn to listen and understand when others speak, and then accept what someone is saying, rather than twisting the words of females to make them responsible for your own poor behaviour. When men think of women as inferior, they don’t listen to a thing being said and simply carry on their harassing behaviour and twisting words in order to justify themselves. Ignoring woman’s requests not to communicate with them is an aggressive act. Continuing to dominate a conversation you’re not welcome in is another aggressive act. Both aim to control the situation and reinforce superiority.

@AllIgotforitwascankles

I visit many different forums. Mainly car ones as I like getting my hands dirty like a real man and fixing cars. Often I beat my chest after changing the oil as a mark of sheer masculinity.

I was just mentioning upthread that lots of guys on Pistonheads are pretty manly but aren't so fragile that they worry about the rise of women, or whatever you like to call it this week. On the contrary, there's not much to worry about if you're comfortable in your own skin and not a complete throbber.

But obviously you've just come here to talk utter BS and can't even explain yourself. Instead you're completely side stepping the issue when challenged. That's really not the mark of a man in my book.

Yes sorry @WahineToa . I'll duck out now as I can feel the testosterone bubbling up.

@AllIgotforitwascankles has already got his fanny pack out and I was just grappling for my man bag. Not good at all so apologies.

There is change happening out there. I worry for my son, who is kind, honest, empathic. Knows how to do all the household chores etc. we are team in the house, no one is expected to look everyone, we look after each other kind of thing.

My fear is the girls, they are so aggressive and in your face. If the men stand up for themselves they are a bullies or wimps. Apparently they need to accept being be yelled at, hit and generally abused

I hate this phrase but "not all men....."

There are gangs of teenage girls roaming around here attacking men because they are men and deserve it

@Lunar270

Christ listen to yourself apologising. For what?
That poster is passive aggressively continuing to reference me and indirectly talking about me (which she describes as an act of aggression but apparently not coming from her) while insisting that I not respond (because to reference her posts as she does mine would be aggressive).

Its completely passive aggressive. As is her assertion that boys and men listen and learn while not thinking the same goes in return.
This is a forum of discussion, discussion isn’t aggression nor domination and it has nothing to do with “reinforcing superiority”. That poster simply wants to state her point of view, have it accepted and shut down anything to the contrary with passive aggressive tactics.

Its attitudes like hers that create echo chambers, because when she is successful, inevitably men just discuss elswhere and polarisation increases. Then people like her are shocked when young men are basically totally at odds with the opinions she holds and not inclined to listen. Gee wonder how that happens?

@elizabethdraper

I seriously doubt roaming girl gangs are attacking men. How would that even work out for them?

@Watermelon46 I made this point in the Higher Ed forum where posters were cheerfully saying they were leaving teaching their sons the domestic stuff to theirs don’s girlfriends.

An appalling attitude in my view.

There are gangs of teenage girls roaming around here attacking men because they are men and deserve it

oh this is a fantasy. Don’t be so ridiculous!

There are gangs of teenage girls roaming around here attacking men because they are men and deserve it

😂 no there isn’t!

Lunar270

oh I get it, it’s tempting to engage but I wanted to respect the OP and discuss what she’s asking.

My suggestions above are genuine. These are frequent problems I see starting in young men who later become aggressive or abusive. Studies on domestic abusers and rapists clearly show a similar pattern of thinking, women are inferior, they’re deliberately causing arguments by not doing as they’re told etc . These types of men don’t hear what’s being said to them, they create false narratives to justify they way they are behaving. What these types of men really hate is being ignored or rejected, ‘put down’ or told their behaviour is so bad women don’t want to be around them. They get dangerous like that. So I really do believe teaching all our children but especially boys, that others can reject you and that’s ok, you’ll find others who you can be friends with and it’s not ok to insist someone else accepts, befriends or engages with you. Teaching them to accept that rejection and not be too hurt by it, is an important lesson. An extension of that lesson would be to help them express their hurt or rejection in appropriate, healthy ways.

@BirdinaHedge

I mean nobody is forcing women to date men then do all the domestic stuff. Ime many girls just start doing it even when you haven’t asked. Sometimes girls will just start tidying things even when you don’t want them too.
If they’re inclined like that who cares?

@

@bg21
Good points!

This is satire, right?

And you wonder why most divorces are instigated by women.

They devalue to others a perfectly innocent woman who has knocked them back to justify their behaviour. Men need to take no for an answer . This should be taught as part of sex education.

Telling a man "no" about anything is a pretty good test of his character. The ones who try and push it are most often the ones you want to avoid.

If a person cannot accept no, you have problems.