What can we as parents do to stop our sons turning into the men we read about on mumsnet daily?

[Watermelon46]

…….or to teach our daughters not to put up with any of this.

It seems (from posts on here) that so many children are living in toxic environments, with fathers who are man children who are used to their own way and throw their toys out of the pram if they don’t get it, and mothers who appear trapped in this environment.

I see and hear elements of this behaviour from grown men regularly with my friends and my own family, including ourselves, so know it’s not just made up on here.

What can we do to break this cycle?

I think so much of it comes down to porn.

Point taken. I do what I can but WFH naturally means I don't go out often nowadays except to exercise/shop etc.

Although do you ever visit sites like Pistonheads, where it's a predominantly male space?

Over the years I've seen it go from a hotbed of misogyny to a site where a lot more men challenge shitty attitudes. It often ends up like most forums and I don't know how much sinks in but the proportion of men calling out unacceptable attitudes has grown significantly.

Is it enough? Probably not, but we do actually speak out.

The trouble is, like in MN racism threads, there are plenty of members who just will not alter their attitudes and it's mind boggling. What you do with people like this I don't know as it just doesn't matter how much calling out you do, some are resistant to change.

Oh absolutely. For some the shift in attitude is too great and we have to hope this changes for the generation after, but as we see so many children ending up like their parents and following poor behaviour it does often seem like a problem we can’t fix. It can be overwhelming to think about and that’s also why people avoid thinking about it or even accepting the problem.

Not sure of the situations you are referring to with the All blacks, but this was how the disgraceful and misogynistic Welsh police handled a violent incident involving a Welsh Rubgy International player. What hope is there?!

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-58791723

The All Blacks have a very very long history of players who commit domestic abuse against women, more recently players in the national competition fighting each other and one needing extensive surgery to his jaw. The player who did that played in the World Cup for Japan months later. In 2018 a player in the NZ mitre 10 cup, not a NZer, committed violence against his partner in the street and was pulled off by a bar security worker. He got no conviction, lost his upcoming Ireland contract but got rewarded with a NZ super rugby contract a month later and an all black contract that same year. He’s still playing. Last year they had a player, also not a NZer and had been there just 4 years, punch a woman in a bar twice, and her partner, threaten them days later and he received no conviction and a one match ban. Pretty much every couple of years one of them beats their partner- in 2004 one beat his heavily pregnant partner, was retained and got name suppression. These guys regularly do school visits. Every time the coaches and other players come out to defend them. I’ve complained a lot directly and talked to NZR head of communications about the way they respond, she actually apologised for the words of three men in rugby, I laughed and told her that having her call me to apologise for three men probably wasn’t helping their image.

I do think part of the issue is that when folks try to crack it it often focuses on the big things - understandably - like the violence and sexual assault.

For me though, once you get to that point with a guy it’s a lost cause. It needs to start much much earlier than that and with small things that seem insignificant.

It needs to become socially unacceptable to call your ex girlfriend/ex wife derogatory names.
It needs to become socially unacceptable to refuse to pay maintenance for your children.
It needs to become socially unacceptable to call women who knock you back frigid/slut/etc.

And that mostly needs to come from other men. It needs to be unacceptable to be derogatory in front of your mates.

Equally though women do have a part to play in it. My ex is a prime example. I had to go to his military bosses to force him to pay maintenance. His nee wife joined in with him in finding as many ways to make life difficult for me because I was “a bitch” to him apparently. She’s now genuinely surprised now they’ve split up that he’s playing silly buggers with maintenance for her and she’s now the bitch.

Men that openly brag about not paying maintenance to their psycho bitch exes need to become undateable.

They also need to not be put on a shiny pedestal if they do pay and see their kids. That shouldn’t be something that’s seen as being worthy of praise. That should just be as second nature in life as breathing and peeing.

It needs to start with basic respects and then bigger things will be easier to tackle because the fundamental grounding will be there.

How many generations that would take I don’t know.

@WahineToa

See your post is kind of the problem that poster was talking about. You say that risk taking and “normal” sexual desires are also shared in n the same way by women and you also seek to define what “excess” aggression is (excess to what? The amount women have?)
But in truth men do take more risks and do have more natural aggression (both results of far greater testosterone) in general than women.
Yet you will swear that women and men are naturally the same in these areas, any difference is down to socialisation - and if there is a difference and men have more risk taking behaviours and aggression then the amount they differ from women is the “toxic” part.

This is the problem - it has become en vogue among some women to believe that the areas in which men differ from women are areas in which men are “toxic” and need to be socialised differently (because biology plays no part in their minds). What some women call non toxic is what comes naturally to them and what is toxic is what men do naturally that seems alien to them. So basically they morality isn’t whatever feels right to them must be right and since they see men and women as essentially the same believe that any way in which men differ from that it’s because men are being “socialised” wrong and that’s why they differ from women and women just need to “socialise” men differently and eventually it will all be alright.

However if men and women are different biologically and that effects behaviour and psychology then that’s a recipe for disaster, and all it will create is a generation of men pissed off that (some) women are trying to force them to act in ways which aren’t natural to them and have a very superior attitude about it.

It was once said that men viewed women as defective men - it would now seem from all this talk of “toxic masculinity” that feminists view men as defective women and hold womens instincts and behaviour as the gold standard for men to aspire too.

The idea of women understanding men and knowing what is best for them better than men themselves is just as absurd as the reverse, yet some women express these views on “toxic” men and what to be done about them with all the arrogance of a Victorian era man talking about women and their psychology as though he were an expert.

To be quite honest I think the “problem” is going to get much much worse. All these men like Tate, or Trump or Vox in Spain who are resonating with young men are to be honest - dumb buffons - and yet they are resonating with young men. Imagine what will happen if half smart men actually want to gain power or purpose by weaponising young mens societal dissatisfaction?

I think you’ve got to see it from mens point of view - so much of their normal beahviour even when not hurting others is called toxic - they’re not allowed they’re traditional cultural outlets (sports, media) etc without these things having to cater to women and be made female friendly - and there’s a high divorce rate and they know most divorces are initiated by women, so they’re basically expecting a good chance of being divorced (not by their choice) and paying matinence or at best seeing less of their kids.

Its not much to look forward to.

I think women (here especially) have made the mistake of thinking that they can never go to far with feminism because things have changed over the past decades more to their wishes. However the reality is for a long time womens rights didn’t really threaten men - they still got most of what they wanted from society (or believed they had the chance too) but if young men truly feel there is nothing to aspire to in society and that equality as such offers them nothing they want (no outlets for normal male beahviour, probably living apart from their kids etc) then we’re really flirting with disaster and it’s only a matter of time before the next however successfully exploits that for their own ends.

I really believe you have to let men and women their own spaces to be uniquely men and women and not duck with that - and then perhaps they can be equal in other ways. But if you try to push all the natural maleness out of men and call it toxic they’re going to rebel and inevitably (since they’re stronger) things will slide back into male domination.

Just to add to that - on this very thread youve got posts that the way to stop men being less toxic is to force them to pay mantinence. I mean really?
I agree that men who leave should pay but we don’t even know the circumstances of her situation - perhaps she dumped the dad.

“Get out of the house and send money for the kids”,that’s how you be a good man isn’t exactly likely to inspire men to be less “toxic” is it now?

It was once said that men viewed women as defective men - it would now seem from all this talk of “toxic masculinity” that feminists view men as defective women and hold womens instincts and behaviour as the gold standard for men to aspire too

what a load of crap. Your post is the problem I’m talking about actually. Minimising and excusing toxic behaviour, which absolutely exists. I never said men and women aren’t different biologically with some behaviours being inherently male or female either. But violence is toxic, aggressive behaviour that doesn’t stop when it’s clear it’s perceived as threatening is toxic, coercion is toxic, violent porn is toxic. There’s a difference, a big one, between toxic masculinity and masculinity. ‘Feminists’ ( are we one big group all thinking the same?? No ) specify behaviours that contribute to the problems we see with violence against women and girls. Nobody seriously says all masculinity and all male behaviours are toxic. But some clearly are.

it’s amazing, the OP is about how we can raise boys not to turn into abusers and somehow we have people here blaming women for mens behaviour because clearly we just want them all to behave like women. Jfc MOTHERS can actually know quite a bit about what is best for our sons and our role in the men they turn out to be shouldn’t be minimised or mocked.

The common belief among domestic abusers is that women are inferior and there to serve them. There are plenty of men around who think of women as inferior, defective and answerable to them. ‘It was once said’… it’s still said by plenty of men in this world!!

But if you try to push all the natural maleness out of men and call it toxic they’re going to rebel and inevitably

Nobody is doing that. Do you think rape is toxic? Stalking? Watching violent porn? Coercive control? Sex trafficking? Strangulation? Cat calling? I mean there ARE actually toxic behaviours. This thread is about how to raise boys not to be like that. Your contributions are to minimise those things and it’s gross. Really gross.

@WahineToa

Obviously you and I won’t agree on what I’ve written do I’ll leave it there as there’s no point discussing it. But anyway as a young man that is how I see it and it’s not uncommon.

However when it comes to actual sexual assault the only one thing I could say maybe helps is to hear about its effects on women - coming from women in boys lives. At least hearing it effected me (not to do it or push to much). But then again maybe it made no difference and I couldn’t have anyway and some guy inclined to abuse women could have heard the exact same and it wouldn’t have effected him and he still would abuse. Who knows?

The fact that you see "maybe she dumped the dad" as an excuse for a man not to pay is part of the problem.

It needs to be socially unacceptable not to pay toward your children. And part of that means the removal of the "I pay my ex £££" attitude.

They don't "pay their ex" they pay toward their children. Two very different things.

@WahineToa

And it’s not like anyone condones rape or stalking or sex trafficking.

As for watching kinky porn, I mean is women reading 50 shades “toxic”? People have weird fantasies, that’s not necessarily wrong if everyone consents.

But anyway as a young man that is how I see it and it’s not uncommon.

oh so you’re who we are talking about then really. We are trying to discuss how to parent so our sons don’t have toxic attitudes, not so we raise them to be women. That is frankly stupid. We I guess are also discussing then, how we parent so our sons don’t turn out like you, blaming women for the violent toxic behaviour of men and boys. I’m absolutely happy not to discuss this with you further. You should perhaps start your own post about how mothers want their sons to be like them. See how that goes.

@JustLyra

I don’t see it as an excuse - I see a woman who dumps the dad, won’t share custody and then wants maintenance as someone who creates a situation no man wants to be in. And yet your idea of how to make better men is to force them to pay maintenance. They should still pay for the kids, but it’s still a shitty thing she’s done.

It also needs to be socially unacceptable to deny a father custody if he wants it. And yeah, the one who dumps should have less say over custody.

And it’s not like anyone condones rape or stalking or sex trafficking.

Given that women are raped, stalked and trafficked every day then certainly some people do.

Men who use obviously trafficked and coerced women as prostitutes as a starting example.

People have weird fantasies,

yes they sure do. 8 million men saw in the news that a young woman in India was gang raped and set on fire and immediately went to porn hub to search for it. Porn hub, where the number 1 search is: teenage anal rape. The video of her rape and burning alive was there too btw.

But sure, who am I to judge peoples weird little fantasies. What a bad nasty hairy feminist I must be.

someone who creates a situation no man wants to be in

THEN KEEP IT IN YOUR PANTS!

It's fucking hilarious how many men come out with this bullshit whenever maintenance comes up.

Yes. Better men pay maintenance. Good men don't punish their children for their relationship ending.

I've worked in nigh on 20 schools over the years. I've known at least 50 women who've been struggling because their ex decided not to pay maintenance. I know countless who are messed around with contact.

I know 2 men whose exes have played silly buggers with contact.

Pretending that the issues are equal is beneath you frankly.

@WahineToa

Lady there’s nothing wrong with me, I don’t harass or hurt women or any of that shit and I never have or wanted to. I’m just saying men/boys need their cultural outlets for masculinity and it’s a bad idea to try to “stamp” out normal masculinity - which is how most guys see all this womens talk of “toxic” masculinity and such. We too, have our own ideas you see, just like you and can express and act on them, just like you.

All the best sister

@WahineToa

I just think custody laws should be fairer to men is all. Just because a man has kids doesn’t mean he has to accept whatever happens in the way of custody or mantinence after their mother leaves him as “right”.

It's rather telling that their is a man patronising and mansplaining on a thread of this nature.

It really does say it all.

I don't think there's a single or simple answer to this question.

But IME the most 'rounded' men I've known are the ones who have been raised in the most diverse environments and experiences. Surrounded, pretty much from birth, by people of all ages, backgrounds, races, sexualities, genders and sexes.

It's no guarantee but I think backgrounds like this give a better chance of an emotionally literate human.

For certain, homogenous Stepford culture doesn't help anyone, but it definitely doesn't create rounded, balanced, considerate, mature men.

I think the current silo-isation of social media is an online example of this homogeneity. People on Twitter, Instagram and even here tend to gravitate towards others who reflect them. I don't think it's terribly healthy. And I think it makes radicalisation of young men into extreme positions all too easy.

The boys/men I knew at university and beyond who couldn't handle the fact that women existed and had opinions, or that some people were gay, were the ones who came from homogenous identikit backgrounds where they'd never interacted with anyone who didn't look and sound exactly like them.

@JustLyra

Im just saying there’s a high divorce rate and the majority are female initiated. Obviously if men are paying mantinence and seeing their kids less then for boys looking at that, they see a future of not seeing their own kids much while paying for them from afar - which as you might expect doesn’t hold much appeal.
Im not judging every situation, just saying that’s the overall appearance that the whole custody/mantinence/divorce rate issue gives to men/boys and it fucking sucks. I mean it really really sucks and young men hate it in a way I don’t think most women appreciate. At least some of the younger women do, but not older women like on here who are closed off to understanding.