What can we as parents do to stop our sons turning into the men we read about on mumsnet daily?

[Watermelon46]

…….or to teach our daughters not to put up with any of this.

It seems (from posts on here) that so many children are living in toxic environments, with fathers who are man children who are used to their own way and throw their toys out of the pram if they don’t get it, and mothers who appear trapped in this environment.

I see and hear elements of this behaviour from grown men regularly with my friends and my own family, including ourselves, so know it’s not just made up on here.

What can we do to break this cycle?

Just back from DD (4) swimming lesson.

Signs throughout the changing room saying not to leave bags/clothes in the cubicle, a lot of people ignore the signs, so you then I have to use them with other peoples stuff in anyway, obviously with no way of knowing if the stuff belongs to someone from the same session or the next session.

So, this evening I chose wrong! As I'm changing DD a women (A Grandmother I presume) starts banging on the door, I ask/tell her she'll need to wait. Next thing I know the 2 boys in her care (Age about 6-7) are lay on the floor looking under the cubicle door and sticking their hands under, no attempt from her to stop them, for all I know she might have been encouraging them. I had to tell them to stop and that their behaviour was not okay.

What hope is their for the safety of women and girls using unisex changing/toilet facilities if this kind of behaviour isn't put in check at an early age by parents and guardians.

So teach your boys acceptable boundaries early please.

I'm amazed the Grandmother didn't tell them off !

Ok both of mine are buggered then.

I teach both of mine boundaries
saying no
NOT over riding their boundaries to be nice

calling out abusive to us friendships etc

and lots of love and cuddles and animals

no playing on any Xboxes etc lots of board games

Don't have children with men like this.

My ex has substantial influence on DS1 and it undermines absolutely everything that DH and I attempt to teach him. DH is fantastic, the best role model our DC could wish for, and DS1 just wants to emulate his father. Unfortunately, his father is a narcissistic abuser. I was groomed by him and abused by him and somewhat controlled by him for years after we split. DS continues to suffer.

The DC I have with DH are completely different in their attitude. All have been brought up together since DH and I got together when DS1 was tiny (a toddler, he knows no different). Much of this is, I believe, genetic.

So, yeah. Model appropriate behaviour, but also don't procreate with cunts.

Great question OP! Just from a personal perspective I think trying to talk to girls as much as possible about boundaries, red flags, etc is so valuable. Sounds obvious but my parents never bothered, and tbh while self esteem wasn't an issue, I ended up with guys being able to take advantage simply because I had to work out red flags and various shades of grey for myself via experience.

For boys, with mine I just try to help them with empathy for girls their age (e.g., they know all about periods, how it must feel for a girl if they have an accident at school and so on), we talk a lot about standing up for others and being am advocate (for anyone, not just girls), about how girls can feel unsafe in a way a boy wouldn't in certain situations, and why, and so on. No idea if we are doing the best thing but we are trying and they do often get praise for their helpful and kind behaviour at school.

This is a question that does keep me awake.

You can model equality, respect and the best kinds of relationships; you can teach your sons that girls do not come second to them and shouldn't be expected to cede over their spaces, privacy and dignity to accommodate male wants/convenience.

You can use the ridiculous outpouring of schmaltzy deference to the late queen - about which I'm annoyed with DC's school for dinging it in the kids' ears in a form akin to indoctrination - to teach your kids that social privilege, economic background, skin colour and biological sex make nobody in the world 'better' or more important than them, and by the same token don't make them above others.

But no one raises kids in a vacuum. I worry about the things they'll see and hear, and in the worst case scenario, might do as a consequence.

@Softplayhooray love your post. Thank you for raising kind boys.

Thank you @UWhatNow 🙂

Honest answer? It's really really hard.

DH and I have a respectful relationship (generally) - have each other's backs, share chores and mostly on the same parenting page. Don't drink much, eat together as a family most nights. I think we model pretty well - not perfect of course but not bad. DS16 has been brought up to help around the house, cook meals, do his own ironing etc. He's also a nice lad, funny, sporty, smart, easy going and up for open conversations.

And yet... I know he watches porn - I don't know what exactly so I don't know if it's violent. I can see his Twitter (he doesn't know I know his account) and occasionally his posts aren't very nice, verging on the misogynistic. He thinks Andrew Tate 'has a point' about some things - not the violence towards women but about men being unfairly blamed for all the ills of the world. It worries me. I keep talking to him; challenging him but there are so many influences out there and it's too easy to think all is well and he's a lovely decent young man when maybe he isn't, always.

Unfortunately I have experienced a lot of male abuse of varying sorts and I have a family member who is a sexual abuser and was and is quite verbally abusive to family. My family excused and minimised his behaviour and he was never remorseful. He’s an unpleasant man 25 years later and I suspect still an abuser.

We all lie to ourselves and each other about this problem. While it’s a problem within males, it’s a problem females contribute to significantly. Because we minimise, we forgive too easily, we risk our lives and that of our children, we tell stories about ourselves and our men and boys. If we really want to end all violence, including violence against women, we all need to have zero tolerance to it regardless of who the man or boy is, to the world or to us. Our idol’s and our sons should be judged and punished the same as the pedophile down the street. By us and by society. When you think about it, that’s a huge thing. It’s a significant shift globally.

And none of that is a reflection on you or your husband @Mooda . None of us are perfect parents and their personalities aren't wholly determined by us.

He's 16 and finding his way. Having opposing values is normal and whilst it can be concerning, he has much to work out for himself. But I'm sure he'll get there.

The problem is, is that boys are told to not exhibit traditional masculine traits (which have been rebranded as ‘toxic masculinity’) but people are put off by feminine men, so the ones that ignore that messaging end up more successful leaving the rest confused and bitter

I just listened to a podcast interview with Richard Reeves, author of Of Men and Boys. He’s British, now based in the US. amp.theguardian.com/books/2022/oct/03/of-boys-and-men-why-the-modern-male-is-struggling-by-richard-reeves-review-the-descent-of-man

it was really interesting. key points included:

men and boys are biologically different from women and girls. seems obvious but the attempt to explain all the differences as social / cultural rather than biological are not helpful to men. Males, at a population level, take more risks, are more aggressive, want more sex then females ; these are just biological facts, they are not something we can try to stamp out at the individual level.

Marriage is good for men (as a testosterone suppressor) and divorce generally has a greater negative impact on boys than on girls. Boys need good role models - fathers, grand fathers, uncles etc, and the massive feminisation of education is depriving boys of a lot of positive role models as there are so few male teachers. Ditto psychologists - something like 95% of psychologists under the age of 30 in the US are female. So if a boy wants to talk to someone about, say, a porn addiction, and he’d rather talk to a man, that’s going to be hard to do.

Male-only spaces are important, despite the association with ‘old boys networks. Men don’t get together with their friends just to be with each other, like women do; they need to be doing something, and when all these activities (Scouts, golf clubs etc)become open to women as well, they lose out.

At the heart of it seems to be the question of where does masculinity and the biological reality of being male fit these days, when all these things (risk taking, agression, desire for sex) are now deemed as ’toxic masculinity’ and the traditional ways of directing or moderating these behaviours (manual work, marriage etc) are disappearing.

To answer your question OP, from what I heard, I’d say: accept that boys are biologically different to girls, don’t demonise them for the behaviours that result from this, and surround them with positive male role models.

... posted too soon.

... with positive male role models that teach them about a mature, positive version of masculinity (taking responsibility, providing for and caring about a family etc) rather than negative, immature expressions of it (violence, aggression, 'grab them by the pussy' sexual aggression).

If parents bring their sons up to be decent human beings, pulling their weight in household and earning, not being violent in word or deed, that will help.

But I think a lot of male socialisation into violence, arrogance and selfishness comes from societal expectations. And from instinct.

My father, brother, both grandfather's and uncles were all decent men. Hardworking, caring, funny, did their fair share around the house etc.

Bring them up with love, respect and a decent work ethic, giving them chores and responsibilities around the home. Education.

If I had a daughter I would be teaching her how to change light bulbs, pay bills, car management, putting the bins out. Things that are traditionally 'mens jobs' or were in previous generations. It goes both ways.

when all these things (risk taking, agression, desire for sex) are now deemed as ’toxic masculinity’ and the traditional ways of directing or moderating these behaviours (manual work, marriage etc) are disappearing.

Excess aggression and violence ARE TOXIC. They’re also not ‘masculine traits’. Nobody has deemed risk taking or normal sexual desires, which women also have, as toxic. This kind of minimisation of actual toxic behaviour is what I was talking about.

If you have a daughter you teach them that boundaries and consent means sometimes they don't have to "be kind"

That the biggest gift they can give themselves is financial independence.

Very interesting @Chocchops72 and is always good to read different theories. I don't necessarily agree with his assertions but is food for thought.

I'm perhaps an anomaly but I actually don't know what it means to be a man and what traits come with it, or whether I should be xyz as I just do my thing quite happily. I don't feel lost or missing anything by being non violent or aggressive. I don't know why it's important or why people get hung up on it.

If there is any kind of biological default, then they forgot to program it into me and I definitely missed out on a lot of socialisation too. It might explain why I like it here as much as I do Pistonheads. Who knows.

Toxic masculinity, whatever it is, is just a term for being a dick and there's no excusing it with biological theories. I'm nothing special and really quite ordinary but if I can manage, so can everyone else.

The trouble with theories like this is that they excuse and look to sanitise something that needn't be. Sadly a lot of men are clearly missing something, so find some sort of misguided comfort in this kind of thing, which seeks to explain what they think they're missing. Not good IMO.

I'm perhaps an anomaly but I actually don't know what it means to be a man and what traits come with it, or whether I should be xyz as I just do my thing quite happily. I don't feel lost or missing anything by being non violent or aggressive. I don't know why it's important or why people get hung up on it.

my husband is the same, and any male friends of mine ( or I wouldn’t be friends with them ). I don’t think any of you are an anomaly at all.

@Mooda
It’s unfortunate that your son watches porn, but I just want to say that it’s great that you see it as a part of the problem.
So many women have given up and turn a blind eye to it and think it’s fine (or even fun).

“The problem with men is typically framed as a problem of men,” writes Reeves. “It is men who must be fixed, one man or boy at a time. This individualist approach is wrong.” Instead, he maintains there are structural problems, societal issues, that need to be addressed if men are not to become ever more lost, defeated and angry.

Whilst I don't agree generally with Reeves, this is an interesting point. It's a bit chicken and egg. I think society needs to change but the question is how.

PP's have their own very valid opinions at the individual level and hopefully this will eventually result in a change of societal norms. But what about the meantime when so much media is focused on masculine stereotypes? I'm pretty immune to it but would be stupid to dismiss the effect on others.

Thanks. That's good to hear but is difficult when you only have your own experience to go by (so a statistically small sample size!).

Lunar270 IMO the issue is more that we have a lot of decent non-violent men and boys, far more than the ones that cause the trouble, but that guys like you and my husband look the other way too often. Mums, wives and sisters do too. But I do think men need to step up more to call out the problems. As an example, when someone in a sports team gets arrested for violence against a woman typically everyone supports them, the All Blacks are the best example. I want the other players and coaches to stand up and say, we are disgusted and horrified. Instead we get, alcohol is the problem, he’s had poor mental health, the pressures of the job etc etc

I've talked to my son about parenthood. He is adamant he never wants kids and I so I've made the point that he needs to meet a like minded woman (presuming he wants to settle down at all), or he may end up being persuaded into having kids and not sharing the burden he should be sharing.