What can we as parents do to stop our sons turning into the men we read about on mumsnet daily?

[Watermelon46]

…….or to teach our daughters not to put up with any of this.

It seems (from posts on here) that so many children are living in toxic environments, with fathers who are man children who are used to their own way and throw their toys out of the pram if they don’t get it, and mothers who appear trapped in this environment.

I see and hear elements of this behaviour from grown men regularly with my friends and my own family, including ourselves, so know it’s not just made up on here.

What can we do to break this cycle?

Positive male role models, which hopefully will include the father.

Lots of women on this thread who don’t seem to realise that male behaviour is even a problem in our society!

My husband is a decent man and pulls his weight, but he’s well aware that many men absolutely take the piss.

I regularly hear female friends and acquaintances complain about their husbands’ lacklustre approach to the domestic load. Some of these women don’t even seem to realise that their husbands are useless; they just accept that it’s their job to shop, cook, juggle all kids activities, be the one who knows when it’s PE, make an effort to know the other parents etc. And I’m talking about partnerships of two professionals. My husband is definitely one of the better ones, and even he can be lacking in awareness about domestic issues sometimes (we both work full time).

This won’t be popular, but I think mothers of boys help to prop up the patriarchy in some cases. There’s an indulgence towards boys and their physicality that you don’t see towards girls.

God there are so many bitters on these forums. Most men are fine. Not perfect but fine. Just like most women.

Some men do more housework and share careers - if you want a man like that be with a man like that. Some men don’t do as much housework but fall more into the provider role - if you want a man like that be with a man like that. Obviously being with a man who neither had a career or does anything round the house is a bad idea as that man is a deadbeat.

@Lookingforbargains

What many women on here can’t seem to stomach is that many women are fine with men not doing as much housework if they have other qualities that make up for it or do more in other areas.

If those women are happy with their husbands who are you to overrule that and say you actually know better, they shouldn’t be happy and their husbands are useless? After all isn’t the point of life to be happy? At least it’s the point of relationships.

No offence but I think you’ve fallen into the trap of thinking just because you wouldn’t want something, that it’s wrong for other people to want/have.

I finally went no contact with my emotionally abusive mother when DD was 18 months.

Part of the final push, was the fact that I couldn't teach my DD that if you are in a relationship where the person who purports to love you is bullying and abusing you, then you leave and don't look back, whilst at the same time modelling the complete opposite in my own life.

Children learn fair more by observation, not by instruction. Model the behaviour that you want to see for them in their lives.

As much as it saddens me because I'd love to think I can guarantee I'll make brilliant, feminist men, I agree with this. I know lots of people convinced that they'll produce perfect children, but when I look around me at adults I don't see that the connection between how they were parented and how they are now is all that strong, or at least not easily predictable. I have an ex who had a strong, feminist mother who was a dick; DH's parents are mutually respectful but have an extraordinarily gendered marriage, but ours is the most equal one I know. You only have to look at siblings to see that the effect of active choices made by parents is unpredictable. My mum worked; I was really proud of her and wanted to emulate her example, my brother wished she didn't and married someone who wanted to be a SAHM. I'm not saying we shouldn't try, but I do think that lots of people are overoptimistic that if they do things 'right' their children will turn into certain sorts of adults.

I know this is an unmumsnetty thing to say but the most ‘toxic masculine’ men I know were brought up by their mothers only BUT were also very spoilt.

So the only person they see cooking/cleaning as they grow up is a woman who waits on them hand and foot; and they seem to expect their girlfriends to pick up the baton when they got together.

I think seeing their dad pitch in with household chores is essential, if no dad around then rota them to help around the house as soon as they are able (preferably both!).

i also think mums should be open with their teen sons about harassment/misogyny they’ve faced in their lives, men tend not to see their female family members as ‘potential victims’ because they’re not love interests or ‘random women’ if you see what I mean. it shows all women are somebody’s mum/sister/whatever, and should be treated as such

You don't teach children, you show them.
Model the behaviour you want them to learn.

Be a good partner and parent, be responsible. Don't accept poor behaviour. Encourage their critical thinking, empathy and understanding of the world.

Give lots of attention, affection. Create a positive inner voice for them. But also have high expectations of them and discipline where needed.

If I look at how my marriage to STBEXH has ended and why I also place some blame on his upbringing - I'm pretty sure his parents never showed him any physical demonstrations of love like hugging or kissing and it has contributed to him being an emotional black hole, he was also an only child and incredibly spoilt materially so I'll be raising my children and especially my son

• to give and receive affection freely
• to talk about emotions, talk about anything really
• how to manage finances
• how to look after a house ie ironing, cleaning etc
• DIY
• healthy sibling relationships
• how to manage anger, disappointment etc. all the negative emotions
• a healthy work ethic
• discipline when/where/how required
• if you want something you work hard and earn it
• how to earn respect and how to respect others
• how to be happy for others and empathise with others
• MANNERS! Please and Thankyou goes a long way

No offence but I think you’ve fallen into the trap of thinking just because you wouldn’t want something, that it’s wrong for other people to want/have.

@TamzinTotally That’s an interesting point of view. But I’m honestly not sure that any woman really wants to be the one responsible for all the domestic drudgery while her husband, who works similar hours, bumbles through life pretending that the kids’ social calendar is some sort of sacred mystery that requires a uterus.

It seems to be both the best of times and the worst of times for male and female relations and navigating our way through this is a work in progress that won't happen overnight. There is biology/nature and sociology/nurture plus class/culture clashing beliefs that render these interesting times..

It's hard to really see what's in it for you son though - if he has a pretty good chance of finding a women to do all these things for him why wouldn't he? Will he be happier if he married someone who did all this stuff for him or if he married someone who didn't do it for him?

I do a lot more chores than my dh because I work a lot less hours. It suits us and I'm happy to get most of the chores done on my day off so there's less to do on the weekend.
What matters is dh's attitude.
He never expects me to do all the chores and will do a fair share when he's around. He'll also do them all if I'm not able to. We both expect the kids to do chores too.
It's part of being a competent and respectful adult.

Definitely agree with the lead by example and pull up behaviour/spoken to from a early age as well as discussing emotion.

My 3 year old DS sets the table each evening for example, he puts clothes into the washing machine and helps get them out, passes pegs to hang them up etc. He has "hoovered" since he was 18 months (it's a toy hoover that he puts on the same time as us). My DH shares childcare responsibilities and chores.

I have friends who DHs are man child's they don't do anything, make excuses all while the wife is exhausted. Turns out their mums did everything for them and made excuses for them!

I’m sure my friends used to think the same about me. They told me several times that they admired how I didn’t put up with any shit. They had no idea what was going on behind closed doors in my relationship where I was being treated like absolute crap and having my self-esteem gradually worn down over many many years.

Appalling comment. Somebody should report this.

Go on then.

Absolutely. We do our best and hope for the best too but part of it is yielding to the fact that there are limits to parenting. From my limited experience, I find the more you try to form children into something, the more they go their own way. A bit like trying to clutch at water.

To be honest I try not to parent too much. I think we promote more critical thinking as opposed to telling them what they should/shouldn't do or how they should think. The basics were necessary when they were younger obviously but nowadays I'd rather have a conversation where we can exchange opinions. Sometimes our opinions align, sometimes not and that's fine. But conversation is a good way for us to establish/compare/develop values. They get an idea of who their dad is and what's important to me. I get to see how they're turning out as adults.

It's a double edged sword really. Ultimately we want strong individuals, who think for themselves but that means finding their own values and morals, that may well oppose or differ greatly from our own. After all, my values are completely different to my mum's and I don't want clones of me either.

@Caroffee
I agree - it’s an appalling comment. Not sure you’d get very far reporting it though 🤷‍♀️

It’s so, so obvious that men (as a group) get more out of heterosexual relationships than women it just beggars belief that people (women, no less!) can’t see it. No, it’s not everyone- but it’s a noticeable percentage.

I wish I knew the answer. My parents set a great example, they still do. But I managed to end up with an alcoholic cocklodger for a husband. No idea how I 'let' that happen.
I try to teach our son how to be a good person, to respect others and so on. We are very close. He isn't as close with his Dad, mainly because his Dad chooses that. But he has seen the bad stuff in our relationship and knows it was not 'normal', but he doesn't know what is so I worry how he'll be when he's older.

Sometimes bad experiences can help shape you into a much better person than your own parent(s). I have a relative who had a very similar father to my son's, he could not be a better Dad, because he knows what it's like to grow up with that.

Stop with single sex schools. It's ridiculous to keep teens in single sex and don't teach them how to deal with the opposite one.

Especially boys schools are a toxic envrionment and I hate the idea of DD (now 15) dealing with overgrown babies not knowing how to be a normal man and how to treat a female.

Obviously make sure you and your partner lead by examplel, DD sees DH doing housework and dealing with her like I do.
Seeing it in friend's or relative families. Ensuring your daughter is confident and has self-values.

If only single sex schools are possible, clubs like Scouts are great for learning to interact. DD is an Explorer and most of the teen boys are whipped in shape by a no-nonsense female leader and the male co-leader is always showing respect to the girls and shows the boys how to behave. At one camp DD and two other girls experienced some body shaming behaviour from a boy and when we spoke to the leader she called up all the boys and was horrified by the lack of the understanding what verbal body shaming can cause and they all had to undergo PSHCE similary style sessions.

I don't think most men see it either. There's such a lack of appreciation for a good solid relationships. It's almost like it's old fashioned, there are better, cooler, more able potential partners out there so why put any effort into the current relationship?
( not everyone of course)

I have teen girls.
When we watch films or movies I bring up poor behaviour and point it out.
Is that really romantic or is it pushing boundaries when the guys won't take no for an answer. I've done this since they were little and they call it out themselves now.
We've watched love island to do the same, so they can see how manipulation works outside the film world.

My family is full of strong gender non confirming women so we model behaviour.
I always say they don't have to be kind or nice to people who push their boundaries.
Trust their instinct and not ignore it to appease social niceties. Instinct is there for a reason.

For boys it's important the are taught the same. If they are into sports talking about the good behaviour of sports stars. Not enabling the hero worship of vile man children because they are good at a Particular sport. Yes Rinaldo might be a great footballer but he admitted to raping a woman and paying her off I'd not let a child of mine idolise him.

Every parent needs to understand that pack mentality is hard to go against in teens. Look at how any group of teens over 2 in size completely forgets how to cross a road safely!

The onus isn't on the parents. Its on the individual. Be the best parent you can be. Dont blame yourself for the adult your child may or may not become.

Girls...encourage them to be financially independent and build strong friendships and connections with other women. Build their self-esteem young.

Dads gave a part to play too . He warned me about boys and men and their manipulative tricks and about not letting them have their way easily. He said a man will tell a women anything he thinks she wants to hear to get his way sexually. He told me to place a value in myself and never to put up with abuse metal and physical and the front door to the family home would always be open .