Page 7 | What can we as parents do to stop our sons turning into the men we read about on mumsnet daily?

Watermelon46 · 2022-10-02T08:39:55+00:00

…….or to teach our daughters not to put up with any of this. It seems (from posts on here) that so many children are living in toxic environments, with fathers who are man children who are used to their own way and throw their toys out of the pram if they don’t get it, and mothers who appear trapped in this environment. I see and hear elements of this behaviour from grown men regularly with my friends and my own family, including ourselves, so know it’s not just made up on here. What can we do to break this cycle?

WahineToa · 04/10/2022 13:05

What a disgusting revolting post to me. How dare you come on a thread for parents and mansplain and patronise me. I’m not your sister, little boy. You are a problem for sure, whether you go as far as violence or not I have no doubt you are exactly who we are talking about. The kind of boy who thinks women are inferior.

AllIgotforitwascankles · 04/10/2022 13:08

@NightmareSlashDelightful

I think that the womens online polarisation actually drives mens polarisation and “extremism” because you get women who are cut off from men basically deciding amongst other women how men should behave and what is toxic. Then they come out there echo chamber and try to tell this to men who disagree and get stroppy at hearing disagreement because they are so used to other women feeling similar, then the men get pissed off in return and get more polarised from the women and so on.

Although I guess that goes for most of social media, not just men and women issues

IndiGlowie · 04/10/2022 13:10

WahineToa · 04/10/2022 12:53

People have weird fantasies,

yes they sure do. 8 million men saw in the news that a young woman in India was gang raped and set on fire and immediately went to porn hub to search for it. Porn hub, where the number 1 search is: teenage anal rape. The video of her rape and burning alive was there too btw.

But sure, who am I to judge peoples weird little fantasies. What a bad nasty hairy feminist I must be.

That has actually made me feel sick . Eight million men .

WahineToa · 04/10/2022 13:10

Can we get the thread back to discussing what the OP was and ignore the incel? If anyone lives in a bubble it’s him. Clearly.

NightmareSlashDelightful · 04/10/2022 13:11

AllIgotforitwascankles · 04/10/2022 13:08

@NightmareSlashDelightful

I think that the womens online polarisation actually drives mens polarisation and “extremism” because you get women who are cut off from men basically deciding amongst other women how men should behave and what is toxic. Then they come out there echo chamber and try to tell this to men who disagree and get stroppy at hearing disagreement because they are so used to other women feeling similar, then the men get pissed off in return and get more polarised from the women and so on.

Although I guess that goes for most of social media, not just men and women issues

I fundamentally disagree with your position on this.

JustLyra · 04/10/2022 13:12

AllIgotforitwascankles · 04/10/2022 13:05

@JustLyra

Im just saying there’s a high divorce rate and the majority are female initiated. Obviously if men are paying mantinence and seeing their kids less then for boys looking at that, they see a future of not seeing their own kids much while paying for them from afar - which as you might expect doesn’t hold much appeal.
Im not judging every situation, just saying that’s the overall appearance that the whole custody/mantinence/divorce rate issue gives to men/boys and it fucking sucks. I mean it really really sucks and young men hate it in a way I don’t think most women appreciate. At least some of the younger women do, but not older women like on here who are closed off to understanding.

If the majority of divorces are female initiated then men might want to have a look into why so many women would prefer to be divorced (no women grow up with the dream of being a divorced single mother… that’s nobody’s aim in life) rather than whinging about them consequences when it happens.

WahineToa · 04/10/2022 13:13

IndiGlowie

I know. I don’t know whether to cry or scream when I read that stuff. The most common searches on that site are bad enough. Regarding the sex industry, a huge contributor to all this stuff and definitely something to talk to our sons about, the average age a girl enters the sex industry in the UK is just 14! Usually as strippers, ‘models’, then moving on to prostitution later.

IndiGlowie · 04/10/2022 13:13

AllIgotforitwascankles · 04/10/2022 12:46

@WahineToa

Obviously you and I won’t agree on what I’ve written do I’ll leave it there as there’s no point discussing it. But anyway as a young man that is how I see it and it’s not uncommon.

However when it comes to actual sexual assault the only one thing I could say maybe helps is to hear about its effects on women - coming from women in boys lives. At least hearing it effected me (not to do it or push to much). But then again maybe it made no difference and I couldn’t have anyway and some guy inclined to abuse women could have heard the exact same and it wouldn’t have effected him and he still would abuse. Who knows?

Push too much ? Accept that if a woman isn't interested that no means no .

AllIgotforitwascankles · 04/10/2022 13:14

WahineToa · 04/10/2022 13:05

What a disgusting revolting post to me. How dare you come on a thread for parents and mansplain and patronise me. I’m not your sister, little boy. You are a problem for sure, whether you go as far as violence or not I have no doubt you are exactly who we are talking about. The kind of boy who thinks women are inferior.

@WahineToa

What in the holy hell are you talking about? I’ll explain my point of view all I like, you sure did. “Mansplaining” is just a pointless gendered insult and an attempt to shut down disagreement, I’ll ignore it.

I called you sister just in reference to our disagreement between genders, it wasn’t meant as any insult ffs.
Ive written nothing violent at all, you just sound insanely emotional for no good reason.

I thought it might be relevant to have a young man comment here but I guess some people are happier in their own little echo chamber hearing opinions that reflect there own then nodding. Whatever. I was actually trying to be respectful to you but whatever.

IndiGlowie · 04/10/2022 13:14

Push too much? If a woman isn't interested then no means no . Don't push !

AllIgotforitwascankles · 04/10/2022 13:15

@NightmareSlashDelightful

Well I guess time will tell. If women continue to do this and men get more polarised and it makes things better not worse then I’m right. If it makes everything better then I’m wrong. No point speculating.

AllIgotforitwascankles · 04/10/2022 13:15

If it makes things worse not better

WahineToa · 04/10/2022 13:15

Stop tagging me. I need neither explain or engage. No thank you, I no longer wish to engage with a misogynist child. I’m on this thread to discuss with other parents how we can parent our sons.

JustLyra · 04/10/2022 13:15

I thought it might be relevant to have a young man comment here but I guess some people are happier in their own little echo chamber hearing opinions that reflect there own then nodding. Whatever. I was actually trying to be respectful to you but whatever.

Its not an echo chamber just because people disagree with what you’re spouting.

Your patronising mansplaining was not debate or discussion.

IndiGlowie · 04/10/2022 13:17

WahineToa · 04/10/2022 13:13

IndiGlowie

I know. I don’t know whether to cry or scream when I read that stuff. The most common searches on that site are bad enough. Regarding the sex industry, a huge contributor to all this stuff and definitely something to talk to our sons about, the average age a girl enters the sex industry in the UK is just 14! Usually as strippers, ‘models’, then moving on to prostitution later.

They will devalue a woman to justify their behaviour or what happens to her . To quote what I've heard men say : " Oh well she's a Slag anyway "

AllIgotforitwascankles · 04/10/2022 13:17

@IndiGlowie

That was the point, I don’t. Maybe I was unclear

IndiGlowie · 04/10/2022 13:18

AllIgotforitwascankles · 04/10/2022 13:17

@IndiGlowie

That was the point, I don’t. Maybe I was unclear

Good .

AllIgotforitwascankles · 04/10/2022 13:20

JustLyra · 04/10/2022 13:12

If the majority of divorces are female initiated then men might want to have a look into why so many women would prefer to be divorced (no women grow up with the dream of being a divorced single mother… that’s nobody’s aim in life) rather than whinging about them consequences when it happens.

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@JustLyra

Why do you assume it’s the mens fault? Perhaps it’s the womens? Perhaps not. Perhaps some of both but your assumption that men must be causing women to do it is part of the problem. It’s quite possible for women to do negative without men driving them to it, nobody would say the opposite wasn’t true.

AllIgotforitwascankles · 04/10/2022 13:21

WahineToa · 04/10/2022 13:10

Can we get the thread back to discussing what the OP was and ignore the incel? If anyone lives in a bubble it’s him. Clearly.

@WahineToa

Im not an incel. Actually I live with my girlfriend. This is another thing young men don’t like, this whole thing of trying to slur male disagreement by linking the men who disagree with some laughable group. It’s dishonest and I just ignore it.

JustLyra · 04/10/2022 13:22

AllIgotforitwascankles · 04/10/2022 13:20

@JustLyra

Why do you assume it’s the mens fault? Perhaps it’s the womens? Perhaps not. Perhaps some of both but your assumption that men must be causing women to do it is part of the problem. It’s quite possible for women to do negative without men driving them to it, nobody would say the opposite wasn’t true.

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Your stance is very clear.

every negative action done by a male is caused by a female.

You are exactly the type we want to protect our sons from becoming and our daughters from becoming tangled up with.

AllIgotforitwascankles · 04/10/2022 13:24

@JustLyra

What the hell are you on about? I’m just saying that women leaving men doesn’t have to mean men are in the wrong and have driven them to it - you are the one saying men cause them to leave so it is you saying every negative action done by a woman was caused by a man.

WahineToa · 04/10/2022 13:25

This is another thing young men don’t like

I don’t care.

no is a complete sentence. I said I didn’t want to discuss this derailment with you. I’m discussing in good faith with other parents, a parenting topic. You have offended me and contributed nothing but misogynistic comments.

please don’t tag me again. I hate reporting people.

WahineToa · 04/10/2022 13:28

To quote what I've heard men say : " Oh well she's a Slag anyway

This and other variations of it are very common, aren’t they? So taking this, how do we parent our sons so they don’t have this particular mentality. Which is, essentially, that ‘some women/girls’ deserve it. It being whatever horrible thing you can think of. Or if they don’t deserve it, simply we don’t value certain women enough to do something about it- I’m thinking of the grooming gangs.

For me, the key moral lesson to teach our sons would be that everyone is worth the same and worthy of the same respect.

AllIgotforitwascankles · 04/10/2022 13:40

Chocchops72 · 04/10/2022 03:15

I just listened to a podcast interview with Richard Reeves, author of Of Men and Boys. He’s British, now based in the US. amp.theguardian.com/books/2022/oct/03/of-boys-and-men-why-the-modern-male-is-struggling-by-richard-reeves-review-the-descent-of-man

it was really interesting. key points included:

men and boys are biologically different from women and girls. seems obvious but the attempt to explain all the differences as social / cultural rather than biological are not helpful to men. Males, at a population level, take more risks, are more aggressive, want more sex then females ; these are just biological facts, they are not something we can try to stamp out at the individual level.

Marriage is good for men (as a testosterone suppressor) and divorce generally has a greater negative impact on boys than on girls. Boys need good role models - fathers, grand fathers, uncles etc, and the massive feminisation of education is depriving boys of a lot of positive role models as there are so few male teachers. Ditto psychologists - something like 95% of psychologists under the age of 30 in the US are female. So if a boy wants to talk to someone about, say, a porn addiction, and he’d rather talk to a man, that’s going to be hard to do.

Male-only spaces are important, despite the association with ‘old boys networks. Men don’t get together with their friends just to be with each other, like women do; they need to be doing something, and when all these activities (Scouts, golf clubs etc)become open to women as well, they lose out.

At the heart of it seems to be the question of where does masculinity and the biological reality of being male fit these days, when all these things (risk taking, agression, desire for sex) are now deemed as ’toxic masculinity’ and the traditional ways of directing or moderating these behaviours (manual work, marriage etc) are disappearing.

To answer your question OP, from what I heard, I’d say: accept that boys are biologically different to girls, don’t demonise them for the behaviours that result from this, and surround them with positive male role models.

@Chocchops72

Agree with a lot (not all) of this. First off I don’t think men are struggling in general so much as reacting negatively to people/ideas who are antagonistic and resentful of them. Perhaps struggling to overcome them.

Cant agree that marriage being a testosterone suppressor is either good or even true (why would that be true).

Men and women are biologically different goes without saying and there is nothing wrong with male dominated spaces culturally, it’s a good thing (and vice versa).

I really think it’s just a solution of men making new things that suit them better and not allowing them to be compromised again.

I don’t think psychology become female dominated is a problem, it’s really just a symptom of it being old and passé now. Think of it, when psychology started it was like being an explorer of the mind. Then it was a little less exciting but still prestigious. But now it’s just old and stale and everyone and their mum has a degree in psychology so it’s inevitably devalued in addition to being stale. Men have just lost interest because it’s not fresh I think. If women want to inherit it let them, ineveitably that will mean men don’t see them as much but whatever, I’m sure they’ll think of some new equivalent of psychology that suits men more.

Lunar270 · 04/10/2022 13:45

AllIgotforitwascankles · 04/10/2022 13:14

@WahineToa

What in the holy hell are you talking about? I’ll explain my point of view all I like, you sure did. “Mansplaining” is just a pointless gendered insult and an attempt to shut down disagreement, I’ll ignore it.

I called you sister just in reference to our disagreement between genders, it wasn’t meant as any insult ffs.
Ive written nothing violent at all, you just sound insanely emotional for no good reason.

I thought it might be relevant to have a young man comment here but I guess some people are happier in their own little echo chamber hearing opinions that reflect there own then nodding. Whatever. I was actually trying to be respectful to you but whatever.

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Seriously give it up man. I read your post and literally cringed. Lady, sister?!

Anyway, mano a mano, what manly, chest hairy stuff do you want to do that's being prevented by women. I can't think of one thing that's more difficult nowadays.

If you're not beating, raping or being generally nasty then what blokey stuff is a problem?