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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

What can we as parents do to stop our sons turning into the men we read about on mumsnet daily?

205 replies

Watermelon46 · 02/10/2022 09:39

…….or to teach our daughters not to put up with any of this.

It seems (from posts on here) that so many children are living in toxic environments, with fathers who are man children who are used to their own way and throw their toys out of the pram if they don’t get it, and mothers who appear trapped in this environment.

I see and hear elements of this behaviour from grown men regularly with my friends and my own family, including ourselves, so know it’s not just made up on here.

What can we do to break this cycle?

OP posts:
Original poster
Watermelon46 · 02/10/2022 13:38

Things that have happened this week which prompted me to write this post:

  1. My female friend (mother of 2 older teenage sons) basically accepts her sons talking to her like dirt. One spoke to her in public in a very derogatory way and I felt sorry for her. Everyone else just went quiet. She seems to accept this behaviour as part and parcel of having sons and has assumed a role of a lesser person.
  2. Another female friend has a son about to start uni. She said “oh he has no idea how to cook, I’m hoping he will find a nice girl to cook for him at uni”😡 And it wasn’t a joke, she was serious.
  3. I went to watch my ds (9) play football yesterday. Some of the dads on the touch line were a disgrace, basically yelling at the kids, getting so angry if their kid miss kicked a ball etc. At one point I had to remind my dh that he was watching the u9 match not the premier league. Lots of talk of “man up” etc. Tried to discuss the effect of this pack type male behaviour on ds and his friends with dh when we got home but it fell on deaf ears as I was apparently over-reacting.
  4. General chat with my friends about the amount of life admin and mental load we take on compared to our dhs and the message this sends to our dc.
OP posts:
TamzinTotally · 02/10/2022 13:40

Flyingagain · 02/10/2022 12:58

I think feminism has shot itself in the foot by years of denigrating men.

The problem with the "toxic masculinity" narrative is that it gives boys nowhere to go and there is a depressing/derogatory view of masculinity.

It's important to talk positively about maleness, give boys responsibility and teach them they are stronger and need to exercise self control and respect women.

It is a privilege being a man but it also comes with great responsibility.

@Flyingagain

Agree with this. We can call out bad beahviour but I really don’t think it’s our place to try to define masculinity to men/boys anymore than they should be teaching boys about what “healthy” and “toxic” femininity is. I think it’s creating a backlash in the younger generation of males that is going to come out more and more as they get older.

Ive yet to see a boy have a positive reaction or become more respectful of women because of anything “toxic masculinity” or feminism related. In general they get this “screw you you don’t know me” attitude over it.

VladmirsPoutine · 02/10/2022 13:40

I know this is tangenital but above all else please ingrain in your daughters particularly the need for them to be financially independent at almost all costs. The road to hell is paved with a nice man who'll 'provide' for his family.

alwaysmovingforwards · 02/10/2022 13:41

FiveShelties · 02/10/2022 09:44

The men I know bear no resemblance to posts on here. The women I know would not put up with the behaviour that I read about on here. To be honest I think most of it us made up.

Very much agree.

Often seems like this is a place is a weird parallel universe.

GarlandsinGreece · 02/10/2022 13:42

I am lucky enough to have had a father who did more than half of the domestic chores. His father, back in the dark ages, told my father that you never know when your spouse will die (cheery, I know) so you need to be able to cook and clean and look after yourself. My father did all the cooking when I was growing up.

My husband does a huge amount of the cooking, and takes his kids places at the weekend, rarely ducks out to play golf for twelve hours or whatever. I work very part-time.

I just don’t recognize the imprint of man often discussed on here, where two people work full-time and the man in the relationship barely lifts a finger. It’s despicable.

JustLyra · 02/10/2022 13:42

My female friend (mother of 2 older teenage sons) basically accepts her sons talking to her like dirt. One spoke to her in public in a very derogatory way and I felt sorry for her. Everyone else just went quiet. She seems to accept this behaviour as part and parcel of having sons and has assumed a role of a lesser person.

I have a relation who seems genuinely surprised with the way her teenage son speaks to her, and more so with the way he speaks about his ex girlfriend.

She seemed genuinely oblivious to the fact the way her husband, his step-father, speaks to her and about his ex wife is very likely a connecting factor.

TamzinTotally · 02/10/2022 13:43

SwordToFlamethrower · 02/10/2022 13:02

I've raised a son. He is 18 and living with his girlfriend. Their plan is for him to work and support her while she does university.

I raised him to consider others, look at situations from all angles, speak his mind and value justice and fairness.

I think he is naturally quite empathic so that helped.

I read posts out to DH sometimes and his reaction is to claw at his face and shudder in horror. He grew up with just his mother as his father was an addict and pretty useless. He us a self confessed misandrist and views most men he meets with suspicion. Thinks the world would be a brilliant place if it were run as a matriarchy.

I was once verbally abused in the street by a massive man who was accompanied by his partner/wife and 8 year old son. I said "you should be ashamed of yourself talking like that in front of your child" and his son responded by calling me a cunt who would like to also kick my head in... the woman just looked speechless and a bit terrified to be honest.
I had parked outside my own house and the man in the car behind me wasn't happy he had to indicate and pull out around me.

@SwordToFlamethrower

How is living with a self confessed misandrist who wants a matriarchy (if this is a real post) a good thing for your son? That’s just as bad as living with a man who hates women.

TamzinTotally · 02/10/2022 13:46

Angelinflipflops · 02/10/2022 13:36

Tamsin, although it is a running theme in my friendship groups, most of my female friends do most of the housework, not all, I don't think it's just mumsnet

@Angelinflipflops
No I believe you do. I’m just saying you only read the complaints over it - for every complaint there is probably two women who are fine with it, probably because the husband works more and they’ve chosen to live like that (I did/do). It doesn’t mean I’m being disrespected.

I think some on Mumsnet can’t get their heads round the idea that just because they want an exact split of housework and career with their husband - there are other women who don’t want that and it’s alright.

TamzinTotally · 02/10/2022 13:51

@Watermelon46

About the sports thing. I think you just have to let men alone with that competitive side of themselves (but seriously they shouldn’t be yelling at kids from the sidelines). Even if there are no men around them boys (ime) tend to have that exact same wild pack behaviour around sports. I think it’s alright - sports are a healthy outlet for aggressive male behaviour and I think you need to let them have those outlets and respect that they understand what they need.

Cheeselog · 02/10/2022 13:53

Teaching sons to do chores around the house, ideally from the beginning. Buying them baby dolls and domestic toys like toy kitchen etc to normalise these activities just as we do for girls. Your friend #2 needs to start this now.

(Applicable to both sexes) telling them no and giving consequences for bad behaviour. There are a lot of posts on here about people who have clearly been tiptoed around their whole lives that has resulted in them being entitled and having no respect for others. This is where your friend #1 has fallen down.

APlanetFarFarAway · 02/10/2022 13:55

I've often read on mumsnet, when it comes to red flag behaviour, "he's showing you who he is". This is one message I pass on to the younger females in my family - never believe the words, look at the actions.
It's easy to believe the excuses when you're smitten and have grown up with trustworthy males in the family.

gamerchick · 02/10/2022 13:56

Stop wiping their arses and treating them like little princes would be a start. Still can't get over that poster who says her eldest son has his studies and what not and it wouldn't be fair to ask him to do chores on top. Boggles my head.

BadNomad · 02/10/2022 14:13

House train them and don't let their fathers treat you like shit.

phoenixrosehere · 02/10/2022 14:22

Teach consent - No one should touch you without your consent or permission (unless in emergency circumstance where you are unable to) and you can relinquish that consent at any time and vice versa.

No one is property - You don’t own anyone regardless of your status - (Dating, friends, partners, married, etc).

Life skills are not gendered and self-suffiency should be a default. By adulthood, (barring circumstances where it is not possible) one should be able to know how to take care of themselves independently.

Probably more, but that is what I have off the top of my head.

Pleiades2020 · 02/10/2022 14:24

The stats are probably skewed as well, as people normally would post only if they're having problems, not if it's all going well.

BigWoollyJumpers · 02/10/2022 14:26

I have heard some shockers from my DD about teenaged boys and their lack of basic female knowledge. Please tell them about periods. Tell them about sanitary products. Basic biology. Yes, woman really do have different holes for weeing and sex. Show them what a normal adult female body looks like, with pubes, with stretch marks, moles, saggy boobs, the whole shabang.

TwoWrightFeet · 02/10/2022 14:29

The simple answer is if we stop putting up with it then children will know it’s unacceptable.

You can’t put yourself in that situation then wonder why your daughter is doing the same in her relationships.

Be a role model to your children not a martyr.

IndiGlowie · 02/10/2022 14:31

To teach boys that when a woman says NO then it means NO .

RoseBucket · 02/10/2022 16:50

TamzinTotally · 02/10/2022 13:34

@RoseBucket

Does anyone really say “boys will be boys”? Especially about obviously bad behaviour?

I see people saying that it shouldn’t be said a lot - I’ve never actually heard it said (like ever in my 36 years)

Show quote history

@TamzinTotally like ever, yes all the time, including a Police officer recently about a boy who had a homemade knife on a school bus.

Go on the what you wish you knew about university Facebook page, it’s a regular occurrence like.

TamzinTotally · 02/10/2022 17:36

@RoseBucket

Im not talking about what someone claims was said on a Facebook page I’m talking real life. Like I’ve never heard about some sexual harassment or whatever and then heard someone say “boys will be boys” - yet if I listened to the internet I would think it happened all the time.

Like I said, I’ve literally never heard it in real life and the only time I’ve ever seen it on TV or anything is when someone’s talking about little boys getting dirty digging or playing with toy cars or something, never about anything hurtful to someone else.

Worthyornot · 02/10/2022 17:46

FiveShelties · 02/10/2022 09:44

The men I know bear no resemblance to posts on here. The women I know would not put up with the behaviour that I read about on here. To be honest I think most of it us made up.

I don't think posts are made up but I don't feel that all men need to be painted with the same brush. I have an absolute gem of a dh and a ds who is being raised with an excellent example. I myself, wouldn't tolerate alot of the stuff posted but that's not to say it doesn't exist. So I am not doing anything to make sure that my son doesn't turn out like these men on here.

Ilovemycatalot · 02/10/2022 17:47

To many women treat their sons like princes…. And bad mouth any female he dares to bring home.

Worthyornot · 02/10/2022 17:50

Raidtheice · 02/10/2022 12:47

Agree with leading by example.

My 7YO told us that apparently he is the only child in his class who's dad cooks. 🙄

To my ds he would be puzzled if it was only me that cooked. One of his favorite things is that dh and him make breakfast every Sunday. I am pregnant and tbh he is only 6yo and he is so, so helpful and caring towards me. Why? Because he sees dh doing it and that's his normal.

Worthyornot · 02/10/2022 17:55

Watermelon46 · 02/10/2022 13:38

Things that have happened this week which prompted me to write this post:

  1. My female friend (mother of 2 older teenage sons) basically accepts her sons talking to her like dirt. One spoke to her in public in a very derogatory way and I felt sorry for her. Everyone else just went quiet. She seems to accept this behaviour as part and parcel of having sons and has assumed a role of a lesser person.
  2. Another female friend has a son about to start uni. She said “oh he has no idea how to cook, I’m hoping he will find a nice girl to cook for him at uni”😡 And it wasn’t a joke, she was serious.
  3. I went to watch my ds (9) play football yesterday. Some of the dads on the touch line were a disgrace, basically yelling at the kids, getting so angry if their kid miss kicked a ball etc. At one point I had to remind my dh that he was watching the u9 match not the premier league. Lots of talk of “man up” etc. Tried to discuss the effect of this pack type male behaviour on ds and his friends with dh when we got home but it fell on deaf ears as I was apparently over-reacting.
  4. General chat with my friends about the amount of life admin and mental load we take on compared to our dhs and the message this sends to our dc.

See op this is something that is so unfamiliar to me. I can't imagine any friend of mine letting their kids get away with that. Not one. And then I look at my dc class. We have a whatsapp group with both parents equally. In fact the last 2 birthdays were organized entirely by the dads. We have had sports day, a science day and am awards day at school this term so far and the parents have behaved nothing like you described. We often have parents socials and I can tell you that none of the dads are like this.

YouAreNotBatman · 02/10/2022 18:10

Well, good start is op is that you are realistic and worried about this.
It would be much worse if you didn’t recognize this problem and claim it doesn’t happen much.

Important is internet control. Misogyny is so rife, so many sources to boys and men to unite to hate on women. MRA, TRA, red pill, MGTOW, men like Andrew Tate, incels…..

And porn, filled with men abusing women. These days young as six year olds have seen / are watching it.
It’s one of the biggest problem we have.

Leading by home life is just a smaal part in life, you are fighting againt something much bigger than that.
Low expectations from everyone else is a problem.

I agree with not using ”boys will be boys”.

Teach them, on and on that women and girls are humans too. And boys and men are nothing but humans too, they are not better than women.

Tell them to do chores.

Teach them to take a responsability, this is huge.

Check your own views and values, so many women are male identifying and make excusses for their boys and men around them.

Don’t be desperate for man yourself.