What can we as parents do to stop our sons turning into the men we read about on mumsnet daily?

[Watermelon46]

…….or to teach our daughters not to put up with any of this.

It seems (from posts on here) that so many children are living in toxic environments, with fathers who are man children who are used to their own way and throw their toys out of the pram if they don’t get it, and mothers who appear trapped in this environment.

I see and hear elements of this behaviour from grown men regularly with my friends and my own family, including ourselves, so know it’s not just made up on here.

What can we do to break this cycle?

I also think it’s important that they see men holding other men to account.

My ex has been awful with our two girls. Refused to pay maintenance until his military bosses got involved, messed them around, treated them terribly when he remarried etc. One of the things that the girls have commented on is that their grandparents - his parents - have been very vocal about his out of order he’s been.

One of DH’s friends when down the “psycho, taking all my money for her nights out, hair and Make up” line when his marriage ended and DH and their other friends called him out on it.

Thats important imo. Lots of the little ingrained things being called out by other men is much more effective than women saying it.

I am temporarily living in a rough-ish area. I see groups of really young boys running around without any adult super vision day and night. Over really busy roads. Mother's screaming bloody murder at them in the corner shop. Petty breach of the peace stuff mostly. But it's enough to show me where alot of these boys are let down. It's not only neglect that messes kids up, it's the complete indifference. Like their mothers couldn't care less. I guess here it likely stems back to poverty. And is a cycle. The tories certainly aren't helping with the lack of funding for social care and services. Start right etc. There is nothing here to break the cycle.

Socialise them with girls, especially when young.

Reward good behaviour and punish bad behaviour.

Don’t expose them to violent video games and violent TV before their mid-teens are t the earliest.

Monitor their internet use especially wattsapp and Snapchat to ensure they aren’t being sent violent misogynistic porn by older boys.

Bring them up yourself don’t just dump in ‘sports’ camps all summer where they learn nothing about civilised social interactions

Limit screentime.

Insist that you are shown respect at home, by them and by their father figure.

Talk to them about their feelings every day.

Yep. The boys I see in our village who will ‘go bad’ tend to have absent fathers and mothers who’ve had difficult lives, many of whom drink a lot, and they don’t have energy left to bring up their sons properly. It’s easier just to let the boys run riot or sit on Xbox killing things all day. 😭

I am not a fan of the Tories but blaming them for peoples bad parenting is farcical. Many years ago, kids used to entertain themselves for hours on end cycling, playing tick/tag, playing hide and seek and board games, making dens, etc. Saying more things need to be created to occupy them so they don't act like demons is ridiculous.

And what's with blaming the mothers too? Do the fathers of these out-of-control children not have any blame here?!

Society is to blame to some extent when you see shit like 'be kind' on little girls t-shirts, and 'be bold, be brave' on boys. And every piece of 'gaming' and science/astronomy based clothing is aimed at boys, whilst all the princess and unicorn shite is aimed at girls. In school - even these days - some girls are discouraged away from science subjects and engineering and so on, and pushed more towards the humanities subjects.

But letting the parents off the blame and saying it's the fault of the Tories is daft!

FFS, I've heard it all now!

Agree with leading by example.

My 7YO told us that apparently he is the only child in his class who's dad cooks. 🙄

You and your partner must model it. Even if you live apart.

Number 1 thing is for them to have a decent dad.

This isn't a problem women can solve.

Men who have dads who are clean, tidy, respectful, hands-on parents grow up thinking this is how to be a man.

Is the truth not progressive enough for you?

Get rid of sayings such as “it’s a boy thing” or “boys will be boys” to justify shit behaviour. Small but important start.

The Xbox is only 22 years old. There have been problems with ASB and men treating women like shit since the dawn of time.

But yes of course it is the Xbox........

Model the behaviour you'd like your DC to emulate. Encourage but dont "fix" everything for them - offer support but let them work out and discuss their own solutions. Point out unkind or bad behaviour and let them understand repercussions.
I have 2 nephews brought up by supportive hardworking parents, and 2 nephews and a niece whose helicopter parents did everything for them.
2 boys had basic chores from a young age, went to Uni, work, and have a flatshare with friends. Theyve learnt to shop and cook, do their laundry, clean up after themselves, pay bills. The other 3 helicoptered DC (21, 23, 25) can't cook a basic meal, not self reliant, don't hold down any job very long due to apathy and poor timekeeping, no relationships as equal partners. They think the world (or rather bank of mum and dad) owe them a living, and are always on the scrounge for money. When I suggested I'd pay one to do some light gardening work for me he rolled his eyes! Would rather lie in bed all day playinv computer games or our their phone to their mayes. They never learnt or were taught adulting. My DB is pulling his hair out with them but it's the way he and SIL brought up their kids that created the helpless child-like adults. And it's not going to make them attractive to any potential partner!

DS is 14. I require him to tidy his room, sort his own washing, and plan, shop & cook once a week (normally Saturday). Also to say please and thank you, to choose and buy birthday presents and cards for other people himself, and to help me carry food shopping..

Extra tasks for 2023 will be doing his own washing, and cleaning the bath after he uses it.

He already has a little job for a couple of hours on Sunday mornings. He's saving for his school ski trip.

But he's fundamentally kind, which is a good place to start.

I think feminism has shot itself in the foot by years of denigrating men.

The problem with the "toxic masculinity" narrative is that it gives boys nowhere to go and there is a depressing/derogatory view of masculinity.

It's important to talk positively about maleness, give boys responsibility and teach them they are stronger and need to exercise self control and respect women.

It is a privilege being a man but it also comes with great responsibility.

And I'd just like to point out that despite being a single mum, working full time, with no support from ex, I do not let my son run wild or sit on his XBox all day.

Talk about ignorant generalisations!

I've raised a son. He is 18 and living with his girlfriend. Their plan is for him to work and support her while she does university.

I raised him to consider others, look at situations from all angles, speak his mind and value justice and fairness.

I think he is naturally quite empathic so that helped.

I read posts out to DH sometimes and his reaction is to claw at his face and shudder in horror. He grew up with just his mother as his father was an addict and pretty useless. He us a self confessed misandrist and views most men he meets with suspicion. Thinks the world would be a brilliant place if it were run as a matriarchy.

I was once verbally abused in the street by a massive man who was accompanied by his partner/wife and 8 year old son. I said "you should be ashamed of yourself talking like that in front of your child" and his son responded by calling me a cunt who would like to also kick my head in... the woman just looked speechless and a bit terrified to be honest.
I had parked outside my own house and the man in the car behind me wasn't happy he had to indicate and pull out around me.

Suspect a parent never really knows what their DSs are like, perhaps unless they have a chat with honest ex's of their DS.

It not just men though, women can be just as bad! Let's not be sexist.

Sometimes
I'd guess
It's people's perspectives
It's human psychological perspectives and emotions, e.g. What they think should be
Then their other influences e.g. Tv, films, internet other friends

Basically a cauldron of different types

Stop reading Mumsnet daily?

But seriously if you read endless complaints on Mumsnet daily your going to come away with a false impression of men and the relationships of men and women. Heck for every woman complaining here that her husband doesn’t pull his weight there’s probably three whose husbands act the exact same way who aren’t bothered by it.
My husband and I don’t do equal housework but then again we don’t do equal paid work either - so to me it ends up equal.

I think ultimately men are going to do what they want to do, because the reality is they have the power to and always will. If we want things to be better for women (in some ways) then we can only improve (some) mens behaviour (not talking criminal stuff here) by showing them how it benefits them. I do worry that some women have become so focused on trying to control men and tell them how to be men that their may be a big backlash if ever men just decide they’ve had enough of being lectured too.

I have 4 sons and 2 daughters and I want all of them to be happy in their skin without being told how to be a boy or girl by either conservative types or by more new age types.

@RoseBucket

Does anyone really say “boys will be boys”? Especially about obviously bad behaviour?

I see people saying that it shouldn’t be said a lot - I’ve never actually heard it said (like ever in my 36 years)

Teach them to be decent human beings.
To pitch in with chores, to work hard at school, to support or volunteer for charities.
Develop their sense of empathy and accept them for who they are.

Tamsin, although it is a running theme in my friendship groups, most of my female friends do most of the housework, not all, I don't think it's just mumsnet

We also owe it to our daughters to teach them not to become the people pleasers that often post on here, having got themselves into a right mess because they can’t ever say ‘no’ to others.