That this looks like a stunt to undermine trans issues

[TempName01]

Article in the Daily Mail, not sure if I should link to it…

A Canadian teacher in transition to female is pictured with enormous prosthetic breasts which they wear as part of their gender identity. When I saw the article I thought it must be a stunt against transgender people and trying to ridicule men transitioning to female. If they actually want to dress that way then to me, it looks like they are fetishising rather than genuinely transgender.

I am usually all for dressing how ever you want but it just looks so inappropriate, AIBU?

I can understand why transwomen who identify as female and are attracted to women would identify as lesbians. It makes logical sense if you accept transwomen as female. and that’s why it sounds like their existence is being denied.

There is so much wrong with this that I don't even really know where to start.

Female is a sex not a gender. Trans women identifying as female makes no sense. It's impossible to be the opposite sex. Sex change doesn't exit.

Lesbian has a specific meaning at law, single sex attracted. It is homophobic to give it a meaning that includes a heterosexual relationship. Which is what a relationship between a male and a female is no matter their gender identity.

It is lesbian erasure to state that males can be lesbians.

But you keep harping on about transwomen's existence being denied. What a fucking joke.

We are going round in unnecessary circles. I don’t think you hate transwomen. And I agree with regards to women’s spaces.

Yes, I don’t know enough about the issues regarding women’s sports. You aren’t going to force me to give an poorly informed assessment. My current thoughts are that transwomen who have gone through male puberty are at an unfair advantage and therefore we need trans specific categories.

The truth is that all TW are of the male sex.
The truth is that all TM are of the female sex.
The truth is that homosexuality means same-sex attracted.
The truth is that lesbian is the term for a female homosexual.

The truth is that TW (who are male, remember) who are attracted to females are heterosexual (which means opposite-sex attracted).

I’m mostly agreeing with you but you seem so intent on having an argument that you can’t comprehend it. Good luck with that.

I can understand why transwomen who identify as female and are attracted to women would identify as lesbians. It makes logical sense if you accept transwomen as female. and that’s why it sounds like their existence is being denied.

This is the problem with definitions being blurred and obfuscated - a TW cannot identify as female as that is a sex class, they cannot be female as sex change is impossible, even that is recognised in the GRA which deems the use of female by TW as a legal fiction. Again this is why the TWAW mantra is so damaging, and how have we now moved from woman which they incorrectly deem as a gender to female? Reducing lesbianism to something anyone can identify as is homophobic as hell.

How is their existence being denied? Because they can't have what they want?

Wonder if we’ll ever get any proof of the hate we have apparently shown. @amoobaa any luck finding those receipts yet?

I’ve been searching for it to re-read.

I think that was the point- that there was little difference between specific areas of the brain, relating to gender, in the woman’s brain vs the transwoman’s brain and both the transwomen and woman had shared differences to the man’s brain.

However, from what I can see, in addition to the small sample group, it seems they didn’t take into account the effects that previous hormone therapy had on the brain.

So I’m not sure it proves anything.

So I’m not sure it proves anything.

It doesn't and it has been debunked several times over.

Thank you. Yes.

I’ve just re-read it and commented about that already.

It matters to me because many years ago I dated a person who was born with ambiguous genitals as a result of a rare endocrine disorder and they later ended up transitioning from the gender they were assigned at birth. So I viewed a lot of trans issues through a very specific lens. Probably unhelpfully so. They were treated unspeakably and the situation was more complex than I realised at the time.

Having huge norks doesn't effect how you teach. Having huge prosthetic norks doesn't effect how you teach. This is autogynephilia. Autogynephilia doesn't affect how you teach( or make you a bad person) but it doesn't make you a woman either This in not appropriate in a classroom. Especially a woodwork teacher. Dressing like that( with breasts like that) wouldn't be tolerated in a female teacher .

You can see that.

The people saying ' it must just be how they live their life' can see that.

Wake up people.

That’s a worryingly naive view.

Of course transwomen can offend. Like any other human. Predominantly men.

but you knew that right?

You just misgendered that woman.

unherd.com/2022/05/the-truth-about-autogynephilia/

It matters to me because many years ago I dated a person who was born with ambiguous genitals as a result of a rare endocrine disorder and they later ended up transitioning from the gender they were assigned at birth. So I viewed a lot of trans issues through a very specific lens. Probably unhelpfully so. They were treated unspeakably and the situation was more complex than I realised at the time.

People with DSDs have been treated appallingly in the past no doubt about it which is why it is important to respect their wishes and views now, they are not trans and for TRAs to use them as some kind of 'gotcha' or portray them as some kind of third sex is repugnant.

Her. I’m a woman.

I’ve explained as far as I can. You either haven’t read what I’ve written or you disagree.

Fine if you disagree. I’m starting to disagree with some of my own ideas too. But I’m not going to keep repeating myself for your entertainment.

I’m here to learn, so thank fuck @vestofabsurdity is engaging in a meaningful conversation. Providing information, despite it not being a personal responsibility, helping me to learn.

If it was just you and me, we’d be going round in circles. Boring, unintelligent, miserable circles.

It may be disappointing but I’m actually taking on board what is being said.

How unpleasant. I’m not claiming to be a lesbian. I am one. My wife can vouch for that.

I think I’ll save my time for people who are engaging in meaningful conversation.

I can understand why transwomen who identify as female and are attracted to women would identify as lesbians. It makes logical sense if you accept transwomen as female. and that’s why it sounds like their existence is being denied.

Are you suggesting that because lesbians, who are women who are sexually attracted to women, won't have sex with a man who says he's a woman (I presume you're aware that 98% of TWs still have fully-operative male genitalia) that that man's existence is being denied? Are you suggesting that his very existence depends on a lesbian shagging him? This would suggest that any man who can't find someone to have sex with is having his existence denied — which of course is the Incel argument.

You really do need to check your homophobia and misogyny, because you're off the scale here.

You’re a bit late here, I’ve already taken on board several responses to this.

No I didn’t know that 98% of transwomen have fully operative male genitalia.

I’m a woman.

I’m a lesbian.

I’m learning.

@VestofAbsurdity thank you for the BBC article link

Are we all still hateful?

I never said all of anyone are anything.

I found your comments patronising and sarcastic, but that’s hardly a crime against humanity.

I’ve got information to read. And hopefully, toddler permitting, some sleep to get.

Thank you to those who offered information. You’ve made a difference.

You are welcome for the link @amoobaa

Yes, I don’t know enough about the issues regarding women’s sports. You aren’t going to force me to give an poorly informed assessment. My current thoughts are that transwomen who have gone through male puberty are at an unfair advantage and therefore we need trans specific categories.

Excellent, this is the common sense approach that will preserve the integrity of women's sports. It is not just the unfair advantage though in a number of sports there would be a risk of very serious, life changing injuries. Transwomen could quite easily play on men's teams so the oft spouted statement that they are being denied the opportunity to participate is a load of hogwash, also could be Open or mixed sex categories in some sports.

My issue with your views are that you came hear to insist people are spreading hate, whilst not reading what people are saying.

That you have repeatedly told women that they should be coming up with ideas to make transwomen happy, while trans ideology is removing womens rights

That you think that some lesbians like people with dicks, which is throwing other lesbians under the bus. Especially young lesbians like my daughter, who now won’t seek out support groups because of previous experiences being told she should be willing to date a trans woman. She did date a trans boy and was told she had to indenting as straight so she didn’t invalidate the trans boy she was seeing, even if that invalidated her. This is all from people in the LBGT+ community not GC women.

You believe someone trying to take my rights away, based on the colour of my skin, are racist bigots who I should not have to negotiate and cajole and come up with ideas that make them happy. But insist that people trying to take my rights away, based on my sex are the real victims here and I should negotiate, cajole, center their feelings and come with ideas to make them happy in an attempt to keep my rights.

That you then admit your opinion is half formed while insisting GC women are the problem and that we should take responsibility for solving the problem since we don’t want biological males in womens spaces.

That you think intersex people are some sort of get out clause to prove your point

That you seem to have a problem with ‘acceptance without exception’ because you don’t agree that saying your are trans makes you trans and somehow believing that’s GC womens that’s to blame. You want trans women to be accept as women, but not certain trans women who you have decided are lying, but not understanding it’s the trans lobby that lumped them in together, not GC women.

I hope that makes my position clearer.

The transwomen you are describing are at risk of harm from men

Are they though? Evidence rather than emotive waffle?
If they remove female legal protections then all these bad men will simply come and attack them in the ladies no?

Of course transwomen can offend. Like any other human. Predominantly men

Transwomen are male just like every other man. There is no such thing as lady feelings or lady brain. They pose exactly the same risk as any other member of their sex class, regardless of any claimed 'identity', and should not suddenly be excluded from the same basic safeguarding rules that other men have follow because of any 'gender identity' that in no way shape or form alters their sex and is entirely meaningless to anyone who doesn't go along with the nonsense that some men are women if they say so.

that there was little difference between specific areas of the brain, relating to gender

Besides this being total bollocks, 'gender' is sex role stereotypes imposed by society.
Gender identity ideology is entirely unprovable. Intersex people do not prove 'trans'
Transexuals were mostly gay men with severe dysphoria who knew damn well they couldn't change sex.

Trans 'gender' is anything anyone claims it is. Utterly meaningless.
Do you know men can claim to be women without any dysphoria or changing anything about their appearance?

No I didn’t know that 98% of transwomen have fully operative male genitalia

Yes, whilst teenage girls caught up in the social contagion of an absurd feelings based ideology are being actively encouraged to have their perfectly healthy breasts removed and be made sterile, lifelong medical patients.

Children being used as collateral damage to further a men's sex rights movement.

Male fantasy being put over and above female reality.

You absolutely have tried to tell women what to do. You tried telling us we should be solving the problem.

You don’t have a right to free speech without challenge.

Absolutley no one has said all transwomen are sex offenders, so who are you debating that point with? The trans lobby wants to take away womens rights. Wether individuals do or not is neither here nor there. Of course there are some trans women that don’t feel they should be in womens spaces. That does not change that the leaders of the movement want to remove womens rights. It’s not hateful to point that out.

It really does feel that you don’t understand the points being made, which itself isn’t a problem. The problem is that you believe you can tell women they are hateful and to do more and what they should and shouldn’t be doing and thinking, without understanding the issues.

and this is how the TRAs gained so much traction so quickly, by making people believe they were the vulnerable victims of women, that women were hateful and that to question any of their requests or the reasoning behind it all was hateful. People joined in this thinking and shut down women, questioning anything at all as hateful and terfs.

I remember MN deleting my post as transphobic because I dare suggest that Fallon Fox had no place in the Ring, fighting a biological woman. Even though that women was badly injured as a result, even MN removed it. Because of the above argument that any questioning was hate. It wouldn’t be now. This has gone on for years, you coming in with next to no knowledge telling us how to fix a problem we didn’t create and been fighting for years is condescending.

I think I have mostly the same views as you. Some of what you think I believe isn’t accurate at all but I can see why you’ve drawn those conclusions.

I’ve not said women should be doing more. My assertion is that society as a whole is worse off if we are divided. I don’t think women should be creating all the solutions on behalf of others. That would be trampling on my own rights.

I agree that nobody has a right to free speech without challenge. There would be no point in talking if that were the case. Besides, who would be the judge of it all?

As I’ve said, I’m taking on board the responses I’ve got. And I’m going to spend less time here and more time reading the information I’ve been pointed towards. I’ve always been open to that. Thankfully there are people who have challenged me with information and clearly want to change my mind, rather than be perpetually disgusted by everything I say.

I hope your daughter is ok. It’s still not easy being gay. Though I’m frequently told I’m lucky how much times have changed.