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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

That this looks like a stunt to undermine trans issues

369 replies

TempName01 · 21/09/2022 18:03

Article in the Daily Mail, not sure if I should link to it…

A Canadian teacher in transition to female is pictured with enormous prosthetic breasts which they wear as part of their gender identity. When I saw the article I thought it must be a stunt against transgender people and trying to ridicule men transitioning to female. If they actually want to dress that way then to me, it looks like they are fetishising rather than genuinely transgender.

I am usually all for dressing how ever you want but it just looks so inappropriate, AIBU?

OP posts:
Shakenotslurred · 11/10/2022 21:07

So if transwomen are women, how did they know they were competing the brain of a woman and a transwoman, and not two women or two transwomen?
how big was the study? It’s not the one with only 42 subjects in which only 2 similarities were found is it? I am sure the male brain and female brain theory has been thoroughly debunked. Unless you are aware of more research?

VestofAbsurdity · 11/10/2022 21:08

I’m not completely sold on the idea that transgender identity is a belief system. Because some people are born intersex and I’ve read about studies on the physiological similarities in the brains of women and transwomen compared to men. So I feel like it’s a lot more complex than ‘mostly a sexual fetish’.

People who are born with DSDs and their organisations have repeatedly asked to be left out of this debate, they find it extremely offensive to use them in this way. People with DSDs are still either one sex or the other as the DSDs they have are sex specific. Please respect their wishes.

Those studies you have read about have been debunked several times. To actually venture down the route of some kind of 'lady brain' is again so regressive, sexist and offensive, it is exactly the kind of rhetoric that has been used against women for millenia and resulted in and still results in them being denied education, employment opportunities and having their opinions dismissed as 'hysterical'.

amoobaa · 11/10/2022 21:14

VestofAbsurdity · 11/10/2022 07:54

We'd all love an answer to that question @Shakenotslurred we ask every time it is stated and answer comes there none.

I only hope that all aspects of this debate are thought about carefully so that we don’t end up with unnecessary divides, believing that the only way of securing safe spaces for women is to dehumanise transwomen.

That's rich, the ones being dehumanised, treated as nothing more than validation tools, human shields, collateral damage and service humans are women and girls. The entire basis of the ideology dehumanises women. Women have put a lot of thought into this debate, they are the ones bearing the brunt of this ideology now, the level of thought on the TRA side? No evidence of that whatsoever, questions are never answered as per the above example, abuse, threats, violence and accusations of hate and transphobia, as done by you, are the sum total of the contribution from the trans side.

I’m not sure I disagree with you. Apart from the hate bit. Yes I am accusing people of being hateful. I think it’s misguided hate.

I just wanted to hear people being more specific about the things they hate, not just lumping transwomen in the same box as sexual offenders with fetishes that harm women.

Other than that, I’m not sure we disagree.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 11/10/2022 21:16

I just wanted to hear people being more specific about the things they hate, not just lumping transwomen in the same box as sexual offenders with fetishes that harm women.

Are transwomen never offenders. Are they all, without exception, saints who walk among us?

amoobaa · 11/10/2022 21:18

VestofAbsurdity · 11/10/2022 08:50

My opinion is half formed because I don’t know enough, for example about women’s sports issues and exactly what the implications of self identity are and how best to address these.

You don't know enough and yet happy to throw out accusations of hate and transphobia against those who do.

You’ve taken that comment out of its original context. But yes, I find it hateful to lump transwomen in the same box as sexual offenders.

Other than that, I’m not sure we disagree.

I can absolutely stand by that, regardless of the other areas I still feel I need to educate myself about.

Shakenotslurred · 11/10/2022 21:20

Alltheprettyseahorses · 11/10/2022 21:16

I just wanted to hear people being more specific about the things they hate, not just lumping transwomen in the same box as sexual offenders with fetishes that harm women.

Are transwomen never offenders. Are they all, without exception, saints who walk among us?

Apparently. And shed glitter as they go. All the offenders and criminals are only claiming to be trans you see. No true transwoman would ever be a sex offender, or abuse women or children, or be violent, or issue. rape or death threats. Those are just people pretending to be trans.

DdraigGoch · 11/10/2022 21:20

Choconut · 11/10/2022 18:41

Just been doing safe guarding training and I have no idea how this isn't a major safeguarding issue.

Anywhere sensible and it would be considered a safeguarding issue. Canada on the other hand have completely dispensed with safeguarding in this respect (not to mention their marbles) so anything goes.

Shakenotslurred · 11/10/2022 21:22

So I’m sure you have examples of this hate that you can show us? Or are you just throwing out words like hate to try and shame women into stopping demanding our rights?

Baldieheid · 11/10/2022 21:24

Hate is almost meaningless now. It veers from "slightly put out" to "frankly, that was uncalled for" all the way up to "well! That was rude!"

In this context, it's a social media post correctly identifying a person's sex.

Shakenotslurred · 11/10/2022 21:27

Baldieheid · 11/10/2022 21:24

Hate is almost meaningless now. It veers from "slightly put out" to "frankly, that was uncalled for" all the way up to "well! That was rude!"

In this context, it's a social media post correctly identifying a person's sex.

Oh yes, correctly describing a person by their sex is literal hate speech but rape and death threats and assault is just gentle debate. Apparently.

amoobaa · 11/10/2022 21:29

VestofAbsurdity · 11/10/2022 09:06

Not all transwomen have penises!

But they are still biologically male, they are of the male sex class, homosexuality is same sex attraction, that's it simple, straightforward no ifs, buts or maybes to class it as anything else is homophobia.

I’m well aware of the experiences of lesbians, being one myself. No I don’t live under a rock.

Are you really? You've heard of the Cotton Ceiling then? You've read all the reports on lesbians being removed from lesbian dating sites for stating they are only interested in dating those of the female sex, you've read the reports of young lesbians being pressured and coerced into having sex with men who identify as women because not to do so is transphobic and will see them shunned, shamed and removed from groups and dating sites that are purported to be for them? You've heard the CEO of Stonewall describe lesbians who don't want to date or have sex with TW whether they have a penis or not akin to racists and anti semites or perhaps the infamous TW who stated that lesbians just need to learn to cope with PIV sex and get over their genital preferences?

Yes, I’m a lesbian (if that’s what you were asking).

And no. I have not. I will go and read up on these things. Thank you.

In my defence, there are a lot of rocks and I mostly do a decent job of not residing under them.

I’ll read up on what you’ve listed.

Shakenotslurred · 11/10/2022 21:31

So you’ve decided to,accuse people of hate but you don’t know anything about the issues or why women (especially lesbians). Might be a tad put out. Cop yourself on matey.

lifeturnsonadime · 11/10/2022 21:35

Tiani4 · 11/10/2022 19:06

@Shakenotslurred
That is not a woman so wearing those prosthetics is entirely his choice. I would feel more sympathy for an actual woman who had to live with a chest that size.

I agree with you

It has got to be a parody political statement surely, that is in bad taste ? I really struggle to believe this ...

This is really transphobic. If this person says they are a woman then they are a woman. This is the consequence of self ID and you cannot gatepost.

amoobaa · 11/10/2022 21:35

YouSirNeighMmmm · 11/10/2022 17:10

"I believe transwomen who have done nothing wrong and are not sexual offenders or trying to erase women’s rights, deserve to have their rights and dignity respected. Surely we all agree about that?" You seem to be talking about those TW who use men's toilets because they know that sex change is impossible and toilets are segregated by sex. What rights don't they currently have?

Show quote history

As someone else said… we need more safe spaces. The transwomen you are describing are at risk of harm from men.

It’s possible for lots of different people to be vulnerable for lots of different reasons. Simultaneously.

If I express concern for the safety of transwomen, that doesn’t automatically mean I’m advocating for the erosion of woman’s safe spaces.

There are other solutions, if we truly want to find them and make progress.

amoobaa · 11/10/2022 21:38

Shakenotslurred · 11/10/2022 17:45

So @amoo who were you talking about when you were referencing ‘the most vulnerable members of society’. We are told that is TW.
these ‘innocent TW who just want to live their lives’. I assume they are using male spaces as women have made it very clear they do not want males in their spaces. If they insist on using womens spaces, what is the difference between then and those men who say they are trans. Both are ignoring womens boundaries.

I’m talking about women and children. I think that’s very clear.

DdraigGoch · 11/10/2022 21:39

hate
/heɪt/
verb
feel intense dislike for.
"the boys hate each other"
noun
intense dislike.
"feelings of hate and revenge"

Perhaps @amoobaa would like to illustrate some examples of "hate" from this thread (specifically "hate" directed at all transwomen as a collective) and how they fit one of these definitions.

Shakenotslurred · 11/10/2022 21:40

As someone else said… we need more safe spaces. The transwomen you are describing are at risk of harm from men.

and why exactly is this womens problem? If transpeople want safe spaces they are perfectly capable of campaigning for them. Or are you suggesting women should take on the problems of transpeople and sort those out too? We’re not everyone’s mum you know. Transpeople can do their own grunt work

VestofAbsurdity · 11/10/2022 21:40

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-57853385

@amoobaa here is a link link for a BBC article.

amoobaa · 11/10/2022 21:45

Hearthnhome · 11/10/2022 18:17

So people who want take away my rights based on the colour of my skin are racist bigots. So what are people, who want to take away my rights based on my sex?

If you opinion is half formed why are you so sure that everyone else is spreading hate? Why do you think you have the right to tell other people they are wrong or what they should be doing?

Show quote history

I don’t want to tell you what to do. I’m here to learn. But if I feel someone is being hateful I’ll say so and I hope others would do the same.

I have a right to free speech and I’ll exercise it, in order to engage in the debate and to reiterate that transwomen are not all sex offenders who want to destroy women’s rights. I find that hateful.

Otherwise, I fail to see where we disagree.

Shakenotslurred · 11/10/2022 21:49

@amoobaa i feel you are being hateful. So far you have accused people of misguided hate but have produced no proof of this, therefore you are hateful

Brefugee · 11/10/2022 21:54

Am still patiently waiting for @aamoobaa to show us this hate.
It renders all their other witterings as piffle

Baldieheid · 11/10/2022 21:54

I'm curious but too scared to Google. Where do you think the teacher found such ginormous boobies??? What on earth are they made of?

VestofAbsurdity · 11/10/2022 21:56

As someone else said… we need more safe spaces. The transwomen you are describing are at risk of harm from men.

I disagree, do you have evidence of this? As YouSirNeighMmmm stated there are TW who happily use the males spaces and services, they do not describe feeling unsafe or uncomfortable.

amoobaa · 11/10/2022 22:01

VestofAbsurdity · 11/10/2022 18:49

Are you saying a transwoman has to identify as a gay man if they want to date men?

Bearing in mind a transwoman is male if they are sexually attracted to other males they are homosexual men, i.e., gay.

But you’re not taking about that, you’re taking about transwomen simply not being allowed to exist. Even if they are great people who have done no wrong and do not want to erase women rights.

Another one of the great mantras - not allowed to exist, you've truly swallowed the playbook. Exist as what?

Either that or you simply don’t believe transwomen like that exist. You seem to think they are all sexual predators in disguise.

Nope, try harder I've never said they are all sexual predators in disguise. I don't believe all men are sexual predators, however, as a sex class males (the sex class transwomen belong to) commit 98% of all sex crimes, that is a fact there is no getting away from it. It is impossible to tell merely by looking which males are one of those males who are sexual predators and that applies to all males whether trans or not.

There are very good reasons for definitions and boundaries to remain clearly defined, people who want to blur either are a problem, it's what leads to the person this thread was started about, it leads to the issues currently being discovered at Mermaids.

I can understand why transwomen who identify as female and are attracted to women would identify as lesbians. It makes logical sense if you accept transwomen as female. and that’s why it sounds like their existence is being denied.

However, I do understand and agree with the second half of your post.

Also, the try harder comments are really condescending. It’s as if you think I’m trying to prove a point regardless of facts. I’ll readily change my stance if it makes sense to do so.

I’m not interested in winning points. I’m interested in the truth. This matters to me.

I’ve obtained some important information here.

Shakenotslurred · 11/10/2022 22:07

I can understand why transwomen who identify as female and are attracted to women would identify as lesbians. It makes logical sense if you accept transwomen as female. and that’s why it sounds like their existence is being denied.

and you really can’t see the homophobia in this?? Really??

for one thing, transwomen are not female, they are male, if they were female they could not be transwomen. Only males can be transwomen. A lesbian is a female homosexual. You should know this as you claim to be one. No male can be a lesbian. We all had to put up with the jokes from the blokes down the pub claiming to be a lesbian trapped in the wrong body. We called it out as the shitty homophobia it was. Now what is the difference between those males saying it and a male wearing a dress saying it? Why is one acceptable and the other not?