That this looks like a stunt to undermine trans issues

[TempName01]

Article in the Daily Mail, not sure if I should link to it…

A Canadian teacher in transition to female is pictured with enormous prosthetic breasts which they wear as part of their gender identity. When I saw the article I thought it must be a stunt against transgender people and trying to ridicule men transitioning to female. If they actually want to dress that way then to me, it looks like they are fetishising rather than genuinely transgender.

I am usually all for dressing how ever you want but it just looks so inappropriate, AIBU?

Yes it was. Another victim of male on male violence. Nothing to do with women.

It also suggests that transwomen are trying to erase gay men and make them have sex with them. I’d like to understand more about this. I don’t understand it.

I don't know if you are being wilfully obtuse or something else but this statement is completely at odds with the statement of yours in response to:

Lesbians being told to accept penises in their dating pools”

Lesbians aren’t all the same. Some lesbians would be horrified, others may be entirely fine with that arrangement, others curious or indifferent… so the list goes on. The thing that matters is that the lesbian community are able to voice their collective views and that all sides, including trans, are heard. How else can a resolution be agreed upon that respects everyone’s rights?

Transwomen are trying to erase lesbians - female homosexuality as your diatribe above proves.

Lesbians are females attracted solely to members of the same sex as them
Gay men are males attracted solely to members of the same sex as them

The only resolution required is that trans people accept that and respect totally the rights of gay men and lesbians to their same sex attraction, anything else is homophobic.

I could point you to some really hideous things transwomen and transmen are saying about lesbians and gays regarding same sex attraction and then you can come back and tell me all about respect.

Or perhaps the Cotton ceiling might open your eyes?

this whole ‘some lesbians might like dick’. What is the difference between that and the blokes down the pub telling lesbians ‘they just haven’t found the right man yet’.

There is absolutely NO difference.

Most of the time a man feeling like he is a woman is nothing more than a fetish of wanting to live as a man’s fantasy of what it means to be a woman, the stockings, suspenders, big hair, make up stilettos etc. none of them want to actually experience life as a woman with everything that entails, even if they could.

They limit their experience of being a woman to a stereotype which is then fed back into society as what it means to be a woman, pure sexual fantasy.

its this sexual fantasy adults are pushing in kids. Thank god mermaids is being shown for what it is

meanwhile, all the language, people who mensturate, birth givers are all designed to dehumanise women I mean why not say brood mares? Trying to take away our very identities without consent - language is a powerful thing.

if men really want to live as women, ditch the stockings, ditch the fake boobs, picture a man’s boot stamping on a woman’s face forever!

What I want to know is how would a man know he is ‘really a woman’? I always have to fight the urge to say ‘which one’? when told ‘a TW feels like a woman’. To say someone can feel like a woman suggests either all women feel exactly the same or someone is relying on sexist stereotypes to define woman

why do some lesbians use strap on dicks on their partners if they dont like dicks?

Yep slowly these sexist stereotypes are being seen by society as defining women. Women have never been under such threat.

I’ve recently complained to the BBC about Ru Paul’s drag race in this basis and the derogatory language used. They justified it by saying it had historical legitimacy, rather questionably stating it started in Tudor England. Interestingly enough they used almost exactly the same defence in 1967 defending the Black and White Minstral show

@katmeouws 1/10. Must try harder.

I don’t have a husband or a fiancée.

I also don’t think if someone says they are a woman, that this has to be accepted without question, in any situation. I’ve never said anything different.

Never ever being allowed to ask questions is a bad idea.

There are concrete differences between a woman and a transwoman. not sure how you could argue otherwise.

I be still think the lack of distinction between aggressive dangerous sex offenders and transwomen who have done nothing wrong is unhealthy, unbalanced and hateful. Therefore I think there’s a lot of hate for transwomen who have done nothing wrong.

So again, how do we tell the difference between a male claiming to be trans and a male who claims they are truly trans? At what point does that male become not a man? What he says the words ‘I identify as a woman’ or is there something else one needs to do to ‘identify’ as a woman?

I think that before any man is allowed access to female spaces he should have been operated on or at the very very least chemically castrated. If a man feels like a woman that shouldn’t be an issue and might deter the fakers. This should be certified my a medical professional.

im still not happy with it, but might be a working compromise.

"There are concrete differences between a woman and a transwoman. not sure how you could argue otherwise."

And there are no concrete differences between a man and a transwoman. Not sure how you could argue otherwise.

So why should we treat them differently?

But if we are allowing males into female spaces (even those operated on), they are automatically not female spaces any more are they? They are now mixed sex. How would we police this? In the UK no one is even allowed to ask to see a GRC.

Again. Who invented the ‘acceptance without exception’

Who decided that anyone who says they are a woman, is a woman. Who decided that all have to be treated the same and that women could not speak up against any of them?

The pro trans lobby says your opinion (pasted below) is hate and transphobic. Or ‘literal violence’.

I also don’t think if someone says they are a woman, that this has to be accepted without question, in any situation. I’ve never said anything different.

Do you see how one person or group labelling something as ‘hate’ doesn’t make so?

Your response is so weak it unreal. It’s essentially ‘well I am still going to keep my point of view and not read what’s actually written because I don’t understand the actual issue’

Therefore I think there’s a lot of hate for transwomen who have done nothing wrong.

but you (I think it's you, if not sorry) keep saying this thread is full of hate. And after repeated requests nobody has managed to show any. So i am going to assume it is hyperbole and ignore it.

I be still think the lack of distinction between aggressive dangerous sex offenders and transwomen who have done nothing wrong is unhealthy, unbalanced and hateful.

You're failing to pick up the pertinent point here. They aren't distinctive in law. How do you do that with Self ID and TWAW? What's your suggestion here?

Of course everyone would agree with you that there are TW who have done nothing wrong. But simply advocating for them, like there's no danger of other groups taking advantage, is seriously undermining women's rights. Pointing that out isn't hate. It's important fact

As I said I’m not happy about it but might minimise the risk whilst this mess is sorted.

there is nothing a man can do that will make him a woman. He can become a trans woman but that is very very different to being a woman because he will never experience what it’s like to be a woman. We need the world to acknowledge this rather than be dragged into the fantasy. Until then it is fire fighting

No I genuinely think that answers the question. I think transwomen need safe spaces just like anybody needs a safe space.

Do I think that safe space has to be a women’s only space? No.

I think the only way to design those spaces well, is to consult with women who are not ok with sharing their spaces with transwomen and consult with transwomen who don’t want to be in men’s spaces. I can’t speak for transwomen, so I can’t give a well thought out solution.

Transwomen can be very unsafe in certain contexts.

ovc.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh226/files/pubs/forge/sexual_numbers.html

So their need for safe spaces is important. I’m not saying that means women only spaces should be compromised.

I know men and women alike, who absolutely cannot share spaces with men. They matter to me. As do the trans community.

I know you’re angry about what I’m saying but I don’t have the answers you’re asking me for. I don’t know how you tell the difference between a transwoman and a sexual offender who is pretending to be a transwoman.

I just know there is a difference and we can’t deny they both exist, but we mustn’t treat them as the same.

I just know there is a difference and we can’t deny they both exist, but we mustn’t treat them as the same.

@amoobaa but how can we treat them differently if we can’t tell which is which?

@amoobaa you are ignoring most of the responses. I assume because you can’t argue with it.

Why do women who to keep sex based spaces, sex based news to be consulted? As long as sex based space are kept that way it doesn’t matter.

Ask transwomen ‘you can’t have access to spaces for women as they are sex based spaces. What alternative works for you’

Surely that’s the only opinion that matters? Why would a space for trans people need the input of non trans people?

I’m aware and think that’s horrendous. Nothing I think contradicts the idea that spaces specifically for women are necessary and need safeguarding.

I know you’re angry about what I’m saying but I don’t have the answers you’re asking me for. I don’t know how you tell the difference between a transwoman and a sexual offender who is pretending to be a transwoman.

No-one does which is why self-id, everyone is who they say they are, exception without exception is a safeguarding nightmare. No-one can tell which man is a sexual offender or not either hence single sex spaces and services are there to mitigate the risk. What is offensive or hateful about the same rule applying to transwomen who are, as everyone is aware, male? Men who do not identify as woman or think they are women manage to cope and understand. Why should transwomen be treated differently from any other member of their sex class?

I just know there is a difference and we can’t deny they both exist, but we mustn’t treat them as the same.

Apply your logic in both these statements to men as a sex class.

I think the only way to design those spaces well, is to consult with women who are not ok with sharing their spaces with transwomen and consult with transwomen who don’t want to be in men’s spaces. I can’t speak for transwomen, so I can’t give a well thought out solution.

There is a simple solution - spaces and services are segregated on the basis of sex, transwomen and transmen need to advocate for their own separate spaces and services if they do not want to share with their own sex. Women have said clearly they want single sex spaces and services to be just that, single sex, that should be the end of the 'consultation' with women. Women have suggested additional, separate spaces for transwomen, transmen and those who do not mind using mixed sex spaces, this is not acceptable to TRAs, even when these spaces are provided some high profile transwomen insist on accessing the female only space and bragging about it because at the bottom of all this it is not the space that matters to them it is the people in that space and the validation and power that brings.

Also, it is not just about safety it is about privacy, dignity and comfort a fairly basic consideration would you not agree and yet it seems women and girls are not worthy of such a consideration.

I’m aware and think that’s horrendous. Nothing I think contradicts the idea that spaces specifically for women are necessary and need safeguarding.

We agree that spaces specifically for women and girls need safeguarding, they should NEVER have been opened up to allow males into them. As keeps being pointed out to you though if TWAW the whole edifice crumbles.

It contradicts your idea that transwomen as a class are devoid of sexual predators and that the only predators are men who are not really trans. Several sex offenders who now declare they are women are in the process of applying for GRCs and their sexual offence history is not a bar to them gaining one.

Well quite. How do we tell the difference?

Can I explain why a man would lie and pretend they are transgender but another is actually a transwoman?

Because one is lying and the other is telling the truth and doing nothing wrong. I’m not sure what you’re getting at?

@amoobaa you think there is a difference between one male saying they are a women for nefarious reasons and another male saying they are a woman because they truly believe it. Now the male doing it for nefarious reasons is not going to admit it, so how do we know which TW are safe and innocent according to you and which should be feared. Both are trans. Which ones should women allow in womens spaces?

I read that the children have been complaining and joining protests, saying they don’t feel safe and comfortable and that they ‘just want to learn’. They clearly are very disturbed and unnerved by this. I think it’s disgusting if I’m honest and I also think this person is making an absolute mockery of women.

Because one is lying and the other is telling the truth and doing nothing wrong. I’m not sure what you’re getting at?

No they aren’t lying. If you say you are trans then you are trans. That’s the point. If simply saying you are trans, makes you trans then it’s impossible to lie.

Thats the position this is all based on. And it’s not GC women that came up with it. If you have a problem with it, then your issue is not with GC women.