That this looks like a stunt to undermine trans issues

[TempName01]

Article in the Daily Mail, not sure if I should link to it…

A Canadian teacher in transition to female is pictured with enormous prosthetic breasts which they wear as part of their gender identity. When I saw the article I thought it must be a stunt against transgender people and trying to ridicule men transitioning to female. If they actually want to dress that way then to me, it looks like they are fetishising rather than genuinely transgender.

I am usually all for dressing how ever you want but it just looks so inappropriate, AIBU?

Yes, things need evaluating. I agree changes are needed, as we develop and progress as a society.

I only hope that all aspects of this debate are thought about carefully so that we don’t end up with unnecessary divides, believing that the only way of securing safe spaces for women is to dehumanise transwomen.

So again @amoobaa and sorry if you’ve already answered this, what rights do transpeople want that they do not have but everyone else has?

I think if I had an answer to that then there wouldn’t be a problem.

I’m not denying there are issues. I think solutions need to be created that take into account all the different aspects of the problem.

Collaboration is needed.

The TRA are quick enough to dehumanise women though, demanding phrases such as “Person who menstruates” and “Birth Person” why aren’t trans women standing up to this recategorisation of women as live stock?

We'd all love an answer to that question @Shakenotslurred we ask every time it is stated and answer comes there none.

I only hope that all aspects of this debate are thought about carefully so that we don’t end up with unnecessary divides, believing that the only way of securing safe spaces for women is to dehumanise transwomen.

That's rich, the ones being dehumanised, treated as nothing more than validation tools, human shields, collateral damage and service humans are women and girls. The entire basis of the ideology dehumanises women. Women have put a lot of thought into this debate, they are the ones bearing the brunt of this ideology now, the level of thought on the TRA side? No evidence of that whatsoever, questions are never answered as per the above example, abuse, threats, violence and accusations of hate and transphobia, as done by you, are the sum total of the contribution from the trans side.

There is an obvious answer to this though. Everyone accepts that Self ID shouldn’t happen and third spaces are created for those medically diagnosed.

The history of trans rights is pretty appalling. People being sacked simply because they are trans and this being legal. Now this has all changed. So I imagine the trans community think they have equal legal rights but are afraid of them being taken away?

But people who disagree with transwomen having the current rights they have, consider some of these right to be additional rights?

And maybe valid points are being made on both sides. There are still issues to be resolved to ensure everyone is respected and safe.

If one person’s rights began to erode another’s then everything needs reconsidering.

But I can understand if the trans community feel anxious about their rights being taken away, because they know what it feels like to have no legal protection. It must be a scary prospect.

Something I empathise with, as a woman.

You are dismissing absolutely everything I have said as nothing more than ‘a lot of words’ that ignore anyone whose opinion is different to mine?

My opinion is half formed because I don’t know enough, for example about women’s sports issues and exactly what the implications of self identity are and how best to address these.

I haven’t dismissed everything being said to me. In fact, I keep needing to correct people who are making the assumption that I don’t care about women’s spaces and that I think nobody can question anybody about their gender identity in any circumstances.

I never said autogynaphelia isn’t a thing!

I also never said I wanted my sex based rights taken away. I think I’ve made that abundantly clear. You just want to disagree with me because I also have concern for transwomen’s rights. So you are ignoring everything h say that doesn’t fit your narrative.

The person you are arguing with is an imaginary person in your head. It’s not me.

And no, in answer to your question, of course not- don’t negotiate and cajol with bigoted racist arseholes. Carry on as you are.

The history of trans rights is pretty appalling. People being sacked simply because they are trans and this being legal. Now this has all changed. So I imagine the trans community think they have equal legal rights but are afraid of them being taken away?

Nobody, absolutely nobody is saying trans people should be discriminated against at work or anywhere else. Nobody, absolutely nobody. is saying that trans people should not have the same rights to healthcare, education, housing, employment, voting or welfare as anyone else.

But people who disagree with transwomen having the current rights they have, consider some of these right to be additional rights?

No, that is not the additional right granted to trans people, the additional right they have is to change the sex marker on their birth certificate by way of a GRC they then acquire what is defined as a legal fiction as their sex is not actually deemed to have physically changed as that is an impossibility. A GRC can only be asked for or seen in very rare, exceptional circumstances. Now name me one other group in society that has the right to hide such a fundamental aspect of their being, is allowed to change such a fundamental aspect on an official record and then hide it.

And maybe valid points are being made on both sides. There are still issues to be resolved to ensure everyone is respected and safe.

There would be no issues to resolve if trans people were not demanding that society cleave to their belief system.

If one person’s rights began to erode another’s then everything needs reconsidering.

Women and girls rights are being systematically destroyed by the push for ever more rights for trans people, not just eroded, totally destroyed.

But I can understand if the trans community feel anxious about their rights being taken away, because they know what it feels like to have no legal protection. It must be a scary prospect.

They will never not have the same legal protection as everyone else what they want are additional rights and to ride roughshod over the rights of everyone else.

Something I empathise with, as a woman.

Try empathising with women and girls instead they are the ones who are losing rights.

Not all transwomen have penises!

But that aside, this morning I told my wife about this thread and she said that when she dated, she had never objected to the penis, but the man behind it. She personally chose not to date transwomen but had no issue with transwomen being in the dating pool because she had a choice and nobody forced her to date anyone she didn’t want to. She said there was no quota.

I’m having to think about this one. Are you saying I’m a lesbian with internalised homophobia? Maybe I am… I dated boys as a teenager and when I thought the whole world hated me because I was gay. But I’m definitely a lesbian. My wife would probably get more approval and lesbian points from you. But I’m a woman married to a woman and I would be deeply unhappy in a relationship with a man.

I’m well aware of the experiences of lesbians, being one myself. No I don’t live under a rock.

And whilst I can’t speak for all lesbians, I’d like you to let me speak for myself thank you very much.

My opinion is half formed because I don’t know enough, for example about women’s sports issues and exactly what the implications of self identity are and how best to address these.

You don't know enough and yet happy to throw out accusations of hate and transphobia against those who do.

Not all transwomen have penises!

But they are still biologically male, they are of the male sex class, homosexuality is same sex attraction, that's it simple, straightforward no ifs, buts or maybes to class it as anything else is homophobia.

I’m well aware of the experiences of lesbians, being one myself. No I don’t live under a rock.

Are you really? You've heard of the Cotton Ceiling then? You've read all the reports on lesbians being removed from lesbian dating sites for stating they are only interested in dating those of the female sex, you've read the reports of young lesbians being pressured and coerced into having sex with men who identify as women because not to do so is transphobic and will see them shunned, shamed and removed from groups and dating sites that are purported to be for them? You've heard the CEO of Stonewall describe lesbians who don't want to date or have sex with TW whether they have a penis or not akin to racists and anti semites or perhaps the infamous TW who stated that lesbians just need to learn to cope with PIV sex and get over their genital preferences?

amoobaa Are transwomen human beings like everyone else or are they modern day flawless saints?

I sincerely hope you are not saying that a woman is just a man without a penis.

Where did I say transwomen are the most vulnerable members of society?

I think you need to re-read my post.

I believe that unintelligent debate, sweeping generalisations and black & white thinking are not going to do anything positive to protect the most vulnerable members of society.

I think you are assuming what I think, feel and believe, based on one fact alone- I believe transwomen who have done nothing wrong and are not sexual offenders or trying to erase women’s rights, deserve to have their rights and dignity respected. Surely we all agree about that?

I think the situation as it stands is not ok. I keep reiterating that one person’s rights shouldn’t erode another’s, that I believe in rights for everyone and that more consideration needs to be given to issues such as safe spaces for women and women’s sports.

But you don’t want know about that. That doesn’t support your assumptions about me.

"I believe transwomen who have done nothing wrong and are not sexual offenders or trying to erase women’s rights, deserve to have their rights and dignity respected. Surely we all agree about that?" You seem to be talking about those TW who use men's toilets because they know that sex change is impossible and toilets are segregated by sex. What rights don't they currently have?

I didn’t say some lesbians do dicks. I said some might not mind transwomen being in their dating pool.

When I used dating apps, I selected to see and be seen by women only.

I haven’t dated a transwoman. However, I wasn’t personally concerned with transwomen being in the dating pool. What about transwomen without a penis? What if a lesbian perceives them as female? Are lesbians not allowed to date transwomen?

Since when did lesbians have to follow strict protocols on their dating preferences to placate you?

Are you saying a transwoman has to identify as a gay man if they want to date men?

I assume we can all agree that sexual offenders are not to be afforded rights to harm anyone.

But you’re not taking about that, you’re taking about transwomen simply not being allowed to exist. Even if they are great people who have done no wrong and do not want to erase women rights.

Either that or you simply don’t believe transwomen like that exist. You seem to think they are all sexual predators in disguise.

I disagree with the bit about most of the time it’s a fetish.

But I absolutely agree that the words we choose to use and the language we cultivate is incredibly powerful.

I also agree that I’m a woman, not only a person who menstruates.

Quite.

My wife says it because she doesn’t object to the penis, she objects to the man behind it.

So @amoo who were you talking about when you were referencing ‘the most vulnerable members of society’. We are told that is TW.
these ‘innocent TW who just want to live their lives’. I assume they are using male spaces as women have made it very clear they do not want males in their spaces. If they insist on using womens spaces, what is the difference between then and those men who say they are trans. Both are ignoring womens boundaries.

So people who want take away my rights based on the colour of my skin are racist bigots. So what are people, who want to take away my rights based on my sex?

If you opinion is half formed why are you so sure that everyone else is spreading hate? Why do you think you have the right to tell other people they are wrong or what they should be doing?

robin5810
Trans women are women, but he is not a trans woman. He is very clearly mocking trans women, and using Canadian law to be an idiot.

Trans women are Trans women, no amount of twisting will allow them to be women.

Also drop the term cis many on here find it offensive.

I haven't seen the photos of how this teacher is dressed
I can imagine if she has too much cleavage on show that might be inappropriate for work in a school

Regardless of being cis or trans, there is a dress code for schools.

It is sad to read and inappropriate if someone is breaching that to dress in an overly sexualised way in a school. Is this what this thread is about? I've read OPs posts ..

Most trans women or trans men I know want to blend in as women or men at work because it's about identity who they are and not sexualised for work same as rest of us who are cis (identify as same gender as was their identified sex at birth, as cis isn't my favourite label at all / it's an imposed label)

It's so difficult and emotive a topic though as we each have our own styles over a range of how we dress within reason for professional work situations. I think we are better these days at society being more accepting of unisex or personalised expressions through dress and style without expecting problem to conform.

But there's no place for choosing something overly sexualised for work in a school.

I find it uncomfortable when someone appears to be dressing as a sexualised parody stereotype of what a woman is or a man is, if inappropriately in said work environments especially when working with children.

Quite a few years ago my DCs secondary school SLT had criticisms from parents about a female teacher (cis) who wore short skirts or tight ones with too high slits that pupils could see her knickers as she learnt over to look at someone's work . This teacher was new and a bit naive . Parents were saying 'all for a woman dressing how she wants. but that no one children seeing their teacher's knickers and a*se cheeks on a regular basis'! Tbfair the headteacher acted fairly swiftly an discretely and said teacher dresses in slightly longer skirt lengths now at school. Apparently she got a mouthful from some girls where were sent to exclusion lessons that day for uniform breaches of too short skirts which were still longer than hers when she arrived to supervise. Same should apply whether you are cos or trans

Id also have an issue if a male teacher had too much of his underwear at butt level on show regularly by not doing up his belt/ having very low slung trews ! Or a male PE teachers wearing too short shorts

I haven't seen the photos of how this teacher is dressed

yeah, you really need to google the photos.