To tell you why the title ‘Prince of Wales’ is an historical insult to the Welsh and shouldn’t exist anymore

[Upthebracket22]

I am Welsh. I was enraged yesterday when the new king decided to ‘bestow’ the title on Prince William, an English Prince without asking the Welsh if they wanted another English Prince of Wales.

here is some historical context from a petition going around at the moment:

The "Prince of Wales" title (Welsh: Tywysog Cymru) is a title historically used by native, Welsh princes since the 14th century. The last native Prince of Wales was Llywelyn the Last, killed by English soldiers in 1282 and his head was then paraded through the streets of London and placed on a Tower of London spike. Llywelyn's brother Dafydd was the first person of note to be hung, drawn and quartered and his head was placed next to Llywelyn's. Both their daughters were taken as infants and children and imprisoned.

But this happened centuries ago you might say. The truth is, that since the days of Llywelyn the Last and the "rebel" Prince of Wales, Owain Glyndwr, the title has been held exclusively by Englishmen as a symbol of dominance over Wales. To this day, the English "Princes of Wales" have no genuine connection to our country.

The title remains an insult to Wales and is a symbol of historical oppression. The title also implies that Wales is still a principality, undermining Wales' status as a nation and a country. In addition, the title has absolutely no constitutional role for Wales, which is now a devolved country with a national Parliament.

As Welsh actor, Michael Sheen put it;

"Make a break there. Put some things that have been the wrongs of the past right. There's an opportunity to do that at that point. Don't necessarily just because of habit and without thinking just carry on that tradition that was started as a humiliation to our country. Why not change that as we come to this moment where things will inevitably change."

I don’t think many people have any concept of Welsh history. I find it offensive and think now would have been a good moment to right a historical wrong.

William isn’t an English prince. He’s a British prince.

There's no motorway in Norfolk or Suffolk either. You're not that special.

*@cakeorwine
Your reply is typical of the avoidance of realism that I mentioned!

Everyone's desperate to be offended by something aren't they?

Upset about something that happened in 1282. Wish that was all i had to worry about 😂

.... but not particularly a Welsh prince

I dont know anything about welsh history, but do think having a prince of wales makes wales a principality not a country and that isnt appropriate in a union of equals.

I always though the royal family was scottish but i suppose thinking on it, william supports england at football so he must be english.

You're not Iceland. That isn’t an answer. It’s a diversion tactic.

Saying you could holds absolutely no weight, because anyone can say anything they want.

What evidence do you have that Wales could cope alone?

I can recommend some good Ladybird books. That's what this OP reminds me of, in literary terms.

You're incorrect and exaggerating once again as Wales as a whole is NOT the poorest country in Europe!

As a whole Northern Ireland is the poorest part of the UK. Not Wales. And that's largely due to the decades of the Troubles which destroyed economic infrastructure and prevented Northern Ireland from evolving from heavy industry to modern services based economy like the rest of the UK.

West Wales along with several parts of England is poorer than some parts of Europe. See attached image!

Wales and Scotland would experience further decline post-independence. The SNPs Growth Commission certainly tells us Scotland would need decades of austerity worse than any under Westminster. No thanks!

And you think Wales would fare better than an independent Scotland?! 🤔

A united Ireland would also see a serious permanent 15% drop in living standards with thousands of jobs cut, especially in our civil service.

Again, no thanks!

start here if you want some economic insight. The closing line ‘we are not too small or too poor’

www.iwa.wales/agenda/2021/10/long-read-from-a-welsh-economy-to-an-economy-for-wales-thinking-about-an-independent-wales/

What's so special about the Welsh, when English people have to state they are British?

Pretty sure most of the "evil English" would be more than happy for Wales to go independent. What's stopping you? Oh and while your at it why don't you take the Scots and their illustrious leader wee Jimmy Krankie with you
Trust me, we won't stand in your way 🤣

Again, frothing anti- English hatred will not lead to good place.

Are we going to get a list next of who is allowed to be Welsh? Or what criteria there are to be allowed to enter Wales.

FYI- Cymry just means country man or brother. It was first used to differentiate the insular Celtic speaking kingdoms of western Britain from the newer Anglo Saxon speaking kingdoms of eastern England. Until the mid 600s that included Cumbria, Cornwall and all the kingdoms in what we now call Wales.

What Welsh nationalism calls back to is the now totally debunked theory that the people of Britain retreated into the mountains of Wales against a tide of invading Anglo Saxons and gave away their land to them, therefore Wales becoming the last stronghold of the British.

But we now know that isn’t what happened. The British remained in place across the country and just adapted to the new cultural norms and began speaking The Germanic languages of their new lords- exactly as they came to do 400 years later when the Normans arrived.

In point of fact Welsh myth and language are the last remains of a culture that dominated Britain during from Iron Age to the arrival of the Anglo Saxon hordes.

Is that what you say to black people who are offended by the history of slavery or Jewish people talking about the history of massacres of Jews in Lincoln or York?

That it all happened years ago so they are being unreasonable to mind?

The last Kingdom is a good series on the kingdom of Northumberland. Susan Penman actually has a three book series on this period of Welsh history.

Even the one in Essex just skirts the edge. And we don’t have intercity trains either.

Totally missing the point of a very interesting thread sorry!

“I can recommend some good Ladybird books. That's what this OP reminds me of, in literary terms”

this what it always comes down to - patronising abuse @Culldesack whenever Welsh or Scottish people even mention independence

Suppose England were to give Wales the profits from the coal mines that got siphoned off to English owners ? Suppose Scotland got the profits accrued from North Sea oil?

That might work...

This is true. We are all more Celt than we think rather than the frothing nationalist that call us all Anglo Saxons.

Why not ask for a referendum in Wales and Northumberland and Cornwall ?
New PM,, new King this week ( what a week !
) you might get somewhere !

@Legrandsophie ive learned a lot from your posts, thanks! Very interesting. Do you teach history or are you just interested?

And yet Wales voted to leave the EU.

I actually think with climate change, Wales in a good position. It will still have water i think it will have options for hydro and wind power. I dont know about soil quality for food though. Sterotypically i think lamb! It has ports to trade from.

YABU. Pay for your own healthcare, education, benefits, Welsh-language BBC programming etc etc, and then we'll talk.

Yes @Fivemoreminutesinbed they are very good. I wish more people knew about this time in history. Maybe then they would understand that ‘English’ is an identity formed out of waves of invasion and does mean that we are a totally separate people. There are old Brythonic Celtic kingdoms just like Wales in what is considered England.

Have you read King in the North by Max Adam’s about Oswald? Really fascinating how different the country was then. I had no idea it was the church that first began hording land for income.