To tell you why the title ‘Prince of Wales’ is an historical insult to the Welsh and shouldn’t exist anymore

[Upthebracket22]

I am Welsh. I was enraged yesterday when the new king decided to ‘bestow’ the title on Prince William, an English Prince without asking the Welsh if they wanted another English Prince of Wales.

here is some historical context from a petition going around at the moment:

The "Prince of Wales" title (Welsh: Tywysog Cymru) is a title historically used by native, Welsh princes since the 14th century. The last native Prince of Wales was Llywelyn the Last, killed by English soldiers in 1282 and his head was then paraded through the streets of London and placed on a Tower of London spike. Llywelyn's brother Dafydd was the first person of note to be hung, drawn and quartered and his head was placed next to Llywelyn's. Both their daughters were taken as infants and children and imprisoned.

But this happened centuries ago you might say. The truth is, that since the days of Llywelyn the Last and the "rebel" Prince of Wales, Owain Glyndwr, the title has been held exclusively by Englishmen as a symbol of dominance over Wales. To this day, the English "Princes of Wales" have no genuine connection to our country.

The title remains an insult to Wales and is a symbol of historical oppression. The title also implies that Wales is still a principality, undermining Wales' status as a nation and a country. In addition, the title has absolutely no constitutional role for Wales, which is now a devolved country with a national Parliament.

As Welsh actor, Michael Sheen put it;

"Make a break there. Put some things that have been the wrongs of the past right. There's an opportunity to do that at that point. Don't necessarily just because of habit and without thinking just carry on that tradition that was started as a humiliation to our country. Why not change that as we come to this moment where things will inevitably change."

I don’t think many people have any concept of Welsh history. I find it offensive and think now would have been a good moment to right a historical wrong.

Typical tedious nationalist rhetoric against “the English” without getting their facts right and cherry picking to suit their grievance narrative.

easy target are they?

These type of comments from @YellowTreeHouse demonstrate the abusive relationship between England and the other nations.

I'm English and hate how so many twats talk about the other nations.

@MushMonster would you have said that to India when it left the empire? Would you say it to Jamaica? Of course not- somehow when it’s Wales or Scotland we aren’t allowed to say it

Didn't wales vote for breixt???

Fair enough, I like the equitable approach of getting rid of the lot of them.

I say that of all, and I mean all, nationalisms.

Doesn’t going THAT far back in history and royal family lineages all get a bit abstract? The Tudor dynasty ruled over England for centuries, they were half Welsh weren’t they? Surely the English could start complaining of those awful Welsh kings and queens that kept everyone as serfs and executed anyone they didn’t like. But that would be silly. The current royals are no more English than they are Welsh, don’t blame anyone for them. There’s the royals and everyone else.

I think my favourite bits of this thread so far are:-

• accusing op of cherry picking history whilst cherry picking history themselves
• pointing out how awful England has been to the English as a reason everyone should put up and shut up
• equating a conquering nation’s nationalism with the nationalism of a nation that said conqueror tried to eradicate - they’re really not the same thing
• Boring old repetitions of chips on shoulders and how we wouldn’t be anything if it weren’t for England

I sometimes forget how little the English are taught of their history within the home nations. It was when Nick Griffin of BNP fame moved to wales because he was sick of immigrants - completely ignoring the fact that he was an immigrant to a culture that he had no intention of sharing in - that I really came to see how so many view Wales.

We are not England. We fucking love immigrants who embrace our culture. We fucking love you English who roll up and give the Welsh a go and join in. But sod off with your imperialistic bollocks. You’re not special. No nation is. But Wales is not yours. We are our own thing and we are getting really fucking tired of your attitude to us.

Yorkshire should become a Republic.
We can then get rid of Andrew - and can fund ourselves with tourism.

But on a serious point - what does Prince of Wales, Duke of York, Duke of Cornwall actually mean....

Pointless titles on a pointless Royal Family

Threads and threads of nationalistic abuse on here today. It is terrifying. How far does this go? Are we burning cottages again and spitting on the English?

Stop cherry picking medieval history to support a grudge against a modern country. Norman England doesn’t exist anymore. It is in no way like slavery. To compare the annexation of the Welsh speaking west of Britain with the Atlantic slave trade makes people look ignorant.

Wales and England are the Brythonic nations of the islands of Britain. Along with Cornwall, which actually had it’s own Royal line and language as well. Also see Brittany.

I mean Wales has been part of the nation since before France was a unified country, or Germany or indeed Spain or most of the other countries of Europe. Also Russian. The connection between Wales and England is old and deep.

So please don’t bang that nationalism drum. All it shows is ignorance.

It's a valid point but the immediate aftermath of a sovereign's death is totally the wrong time to be having this conversation. The royal family are deeply in both personal grief and formal mourning and the reassignment of titles is, for them, an intrinsic part of the process. William will have been expecting to take on the title of Prince of Wales at this stage as a the next step towards his own preparation for eventual kingship which lets be honest is likely to happen within the next 15 years or so.

For any chance of success, the petition should be reframed as a respectfully worded formal request to ask William to resolve now not to bring up George with the expectation of becoming Prince of Wales. If the petition gets sufficient signatures ro demonstrate that this is truely the feeling of the people of Wales as a whole rather than a small number of agitators, then the proper process would be that long before the crucial moment is at all on the horizon, William will, with the consent of his father, make it publically known that he will be the last Prince of Wales and that the title will no longer be bestowed until such time as a future monarch resolves otherwise (e.g.if George marries someone from Wales then their offspring might be deemed suitable)

However - the general point quite simply is flawed. The whole system of noble titles is that the whole of the UK belongs to the crown and all the dukedoms, earldoms etc are held by the crown and can be bestowed at the gifft of the crown. Each part of the country has a rank so york, kent, lancaster and Cornwall are dukedoms, wessex is an earldom and wales is a principality. The royal family do not bestow the tithes of Cornwall or Cambridge to persons with any connection to those regions either and Wales as a principality is the most prestigious of these titles to hold. So really to stop there being a Prince of Wales you need the country of Wales to become an independent republic with an entirely different head of state. Wales has its own parliament but that parliament is no more independent of the crown than Westminster, which equally is under the crown. Until that changes, the title of Prince of Wales belongs to the family that currently hold it, and the monarch can bestow it as they choose.

I mean could we have an apology to Yorkshire for Richard III being killed by the Tudors?

Joking of course.

Fantastic post 👏

@DingleyDel well it’s not that abstract when we are STILL getting an English prince imposed on us which is ultimately my point here. Wales is a devolved nation (one that I hope will be independent) and we don’t need an English prince

Yes wales voted for Brexit! And Cornwall. I couldn’t believe it really. Drives me mad that then then complain about it.

Does Iceland get quizzed on how it would fund itself as an independent nation?

What?

Charles & William are assets to Wales and I'm very happy with them personally. Not everyone in Wales agrees with you OP.

Lovely piece of victim blaming.

@FaazoHuyzeoSix yes but the points are:

• we have to have this conversation now because POW was bestowed yesterday
• I would LOVE wales to be an independent republic and I will be marching in Cardiff to that end in 3 weeks time along with thousands of other Welsh people

Those colonies weren't represented in Parliament with their own MPs.

Wales, Scotland, the then Ireland and today's Northern Ireland have representatives in Parliament and are not colonies.

Stop trying to compare them to colonies like India or Jamaica. That comparison doesn't hold.

There is an economic aspect here too - by and large, people do not want a decline in their living standards which independence would bring. Only the south-east of England more than pays its way with the rest of the UK being subsidised by it.

No winder when London is the UK's financial engine.

we don’t need an English prince

But none of us do. Non of us ‘need’ a Royal family. We’re stuck with them because history. The current royal family probably have more connection to Wales than they do England!

@BonesOfWhatYouBelieve the poster was questioning how Wales would fund ourselves as an independent state.

iceland has a population of 270,000 and is independent. Do people ask how they survive?

wales has a population of over 3 million and could more than cope as an independent state.

You think India should not have wanted independence? That's ridiculous.

National identity is important. Nationalism and self-determination are not the same thing.

it’s not about finding ‘something to be offended by’. A cultural identity has been damaged. The same is said for Scotland and Ireland. Languages eradicated. Cultures changed.

People have the right to want to protect their cultural identity.

In Saying all that, in general Ireland has a very good relationship with the UK. Which is why I don’t get bogged down in it. Better people than me on both sides worked tirelessly for peace.

And I’ve felt that the Queen, King Charles III and Prince William (who sent out a St. Patrick’s Day greeting in Irish a few years ago) have understood and respected our culture, identity and independence. I mean all that’s been on the Irish news the last few days was how the Queen addressed our then President in Irish.

We were all highly impressed with her and I have to say it was quite emotional at the time. But I do feel it shows they are very respectful of all the history and willing to get to know more and learn all the time.

Does the title actually mean anything OP? Do they get any special Welsh stuff, endless bunches of daffodils or lot of leeks? Get to have their pick of the pretty Welsh virgins each spring and the first lambs slaughtered?

Sorry I'm being facetious but am interested.

My money would be on Tom Jones for King and Shirley Bassey for Queen. Michael needs to do a bit more graft before he gets a title.