Parents not upsetting people who can’t have kids

[PlumPudd]

Read this article in the Guardian with interest, about the need for people with kids to be very conscious of the pain people without kids around them might be feeling, and how friendships can break up when one person is able to have kids and the other can’t.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/06/new-parent-friend-children-baby-grief?CMP=fb_cif#comment-158514602

As someone with one kid and a second on the way, and some old friends / a sibling around me who don’t have kids (some who want them but haven’t found a partner, one who is struggling to conceive), I do try to be careful not to constantly talk about mine or say things like “gosh you went to the theatre then had a lie in the next day, I’m so jealous.” Even though I am very jealous. Also try to not always suggest meet ups with them at the park with baby in tow (though most meet ups do have to be like this as it’s just when I have more time to meet and gives partner valuable alone time to cook, read, be a person rather than a parent.

However, it is also legitimately hard not to sometimes talk about your kids or bring your baby along to a meet up, because when they are young, they consume your life in a way that is sometimes good and sometimes bad : exhausting!! I’d love to be able to chat to friends about the books I’m reading, the day trips I’ve been on, the exhibitions I’m going to visit, what’s going on in politics at the moment but since having a baby the time I have to do any of those things has literally shrunk by about 85%. You also do start spending a bit more time with other parents because they also care about objectively boring stuff like sleep schedules and catchment areas, and they also don’t mind hanging out in awful kid friendly cafes and soft plays.

Curious to hear views about what parents and those who want to be parents can do to accommodate each other’s lives without causing hurt.

Be mindful when inviting them to activities full of parents with children... we struggled to conceive for a long number of years (multiple miscarriages, IVFs etc.) - I remember that the most painful thing for me was to be invited to activities designed around children. Close friends' kids birthday parties - ok, I was prepared for that but just random days in park which turned out to be parents and kids and us were unbearably painful.

I have friends who accept my admittedly random and fortunate life choices and they are brilliant at not making me feel awkward when those choices come into conversation or in person, likewise I go out and do things with them and leave kids with DH.

I mean..

I spent 35 years of my life pretty much alone with zero desire for children. I went all sorts of places and met pregnant women and mothers with children and nothing in me was remotely bothered. But bloody hell directly I wanted and struggled to conceive the pain was like nothing else on earth. I have the upmost sympathy for those struggling with TTC and I wish everyone would be mindful of the possible emotional pain inflicted by very simple things.

I really struggled to conceive, it felt so unfair when all my friends were 'came off the pill and it happened first time' but I didn't begrudge them their children or feel upset when it was their only topic of conversation.

The thing to avoid is telling people how incredible it is to have kids, life would not be complete without them, etc, etc. Fine that you feel like that, no need to say it. And definitely not telling them they should get a move on and have a baby 😬😬

The article is a good article, and balanced.

I absolutely agree that insisting that your childfree friends engage with you and your children constantly is insensitive and unnecessary - and that's true whether the friends are childfree by choice or not. And yes, being sensitive and kind is helpful - comments like, "at least you get a lie in" are no more helpful than the opposite version like, "don't wish these days away" but I think the point the author makes that more honesty is needed is more important than a blanket, "don't say or do things in case it might possibly hurt someone" because how people feel and what they need varies massively and feeling like you can't ever talk and be honest is far more of a relationship killer than anything else.

The thing to avoid is telling people how incredible it is to have kids, life would not be complete without them, etc, etc. Fine that you feel like that, no need to say it. And definitely not telling them they should get a move on and have a baby

I'd say this is good advice in all situations. Not just for people who don't have children. nothing more annoying than the "you can't understand love until you've had a child" bollocks.

But aren't most activities full of parents and children, when you have children?

Some will say "don't invite to activities with kids, its cruel" and someone else will say "don't leave them out of activities with kids, it's cruel"....no answer will erv be the correct one.

When I was in my multiple miscarraige but no kids long stage, I didn't expect people to change their behaviours around me, other than the obvious don't be a dick stuff. Everyone has their own shit going on, everyone has stuff that can or will upset them, we can't live our lives second guessing everyone elses pain.

Just try not to be a dick to anyone, don't be nosy, don't say offensive shit, and treat people like you want to be treated.

I'm not trying to be horrible or critical towards you, but reading your OP it does read like you are choosing to be more focused on relationships centred on children and child-friendly activities. Which is fine, and absolutely your choice if you want to do that when your kids are young. Some of my friends are similar and I understand it but it does just mean that your friendship will change and possibly drift, but you might just need to accept that.

What I am trying to say is that I'm not sure it's on either set of people to "accomodate" each others lives in this way.

I was the last of my friends and siblings to have children as we has issues conceived and recurrent miscarriages... i used to get very upset when my friends and sisters were going through pregnancy and motherhood but i always hid this from them as i didnt really want them to know how upset i would get.
I think its about being kind and thoughtful. If you are expecting or a new mum of course you are going to be excited and want to share this, but if you have friends and family with infertility issues who you care about you would probably want to dial it down around them.

What i would say is from my experience i hated the attitude that 'i couldn't possibly understand' certain things because i wasnt a mother and hadn't been through it, that air of superiority grated. And i also never wanted to be left out of baby showers or baby parties even though I'd be there on my own i still always wanted to be involved.

Sometimes you can't win. And I don't mean that in a nasty way, the pain must be unbearable but every person is different, one friend who struggled to concieve resented being left out of chat about my kids, trips with them and only invited on 'grown up' outings, shes become a wonderful addition to my childrens life (now pregnant!). The other couldn't bare to hear mention of my youngest and didn't even acknowledge his birth. It was just too painful for her, we've lost touch but with no resentment from me, she just couldn't cope with friends with small kids. If she wants to be friends later, I'm still here. I can't imagine the pain of wanting a child desperately and not being able to have one.
I think suggesting any uniform approach isn't helpful, everyone deals differently. You can try to be sensitive but it's best just to ask them and be honest that you don't know how best to manage the situation.

I couldn’t have children after many years of trying. I am in a place now where I am at peace and positive about life, but even so there are times when people say thoughtless things that make the scars ache or itch.

I'm sorry you went through this.

Can I ask what you mean by "thoughtless" things?

There's a happy medium. Most childless people don't want children kept out of their sight. Many enjoy interacting with them.

It's the insensitive people who imply that childless people have easy lives, have never had to really grow up, don't know what tiredness is etc that cause huge hurt. Also the people who expect priority for everything because 'I have kids'.

There's a balance to be had. If it upset a friend to see or hear of my children then I would cool that friendship because I won't pretend they don't exist. That being said I am mindful of others feelings in that I won't ask about when they want kids themselves, I won't bring the kids into the conversation unless asked for example if I was asked what I did at the weekend. I don't gush about how loving my kids is a love like no other and that kind of thing. I wouldn't be able to meet up without my baby at the moment but can and do ring friends when she is napping or better yet when she has gone to bed so I know I'm unlikely to be interrupted and can actually have a proper chat. I check in via text can be slow to respond but always do by the end of the day.

What @Arbesque said in her post basically..

I'm sensitive around my friends who want children but don't have them. I don't talk about my children incessantly. I particularly don't talk excessively about being "a mother". I'm just me. I had one friend who was talking to our childless friend saying "Oh you wouldn't believe your life changes when you're a mother. You don't know what real love is until you have a child. Everything else in life is meaningless once you're a mother". I could believe how fu**ing insensitive she was!!
At the same time I don't airbrush my children from existence and I'm sure my friends without children wouldn't want me to either. Of course I mention them sometimes - I just don't rub their faces in it and I don't go on about how life is so much better with kids.

Went through four years of struggles to finally have my son via icsi. We had a natural MMC first then just couldn't get pregnant again. Found out eventually it was DH's swimmers. For my very close friends, I was of course happy for them when they told me they were pregnant and I'd take an interest in their children but most of my friends were also considerate which made is much easier. They would update us about their kids when we asked and then talk about other things.. neutral things or jobs etc. I really appreciated these friends as it showed me they cared and had understanding for our situation (we didn't keep it from anyone and were open). When I met up with three old school friends (one had a child, the other two didn't but weren't wanting any), the friend with the child just went on and on and on about her birth and her finding out and it was all she talked about. My other two friends without children both asked me in the bathroom / after via text if I was ok because they couldn't believe my friend going on like that. I had one other friend who didn't carry the same understanding. All she'd do is talk about her kid (at one point she spoke at me for 40 minutes straight about her child), put her kid on the phone to me at 1 year old and eventually it was too much and I had to back off from the friendship. Even now with my DS and a little natural miracle on the way, I'm so careful about who I talk to about my pregnancy/ my son. It has stayed with me.

It sounds quite selfish but it's not that you're not happy for your friends but the pain is just awful knowing all you've wanted is a family and you've been told your only chance is icsi. I know kids can be difficult, I'm experiencing it now but I would save that kind of talk for other friends with children / family. I have one friend who has had 2 rounds of icsi and still has no children so I'd never go on too much about DS or my pregnancy to her and wait for her to ask, which she does.

it's tough as everyone is different and will react differently. I think it's something we should all be far more open about really.

That's because your insensitive friend has nothing else to talk about.

Adults without children get up to lots of interesting things.

Also try to not always suggest meet ups with them at the park with baby in tow (though most meet ups do have to be like this as it’s just when I have more time to meet and gives partner valuable alone time to cook, read, be a person rather than a parent.

If I've read that bit right you mention taking your baby out and about so your partner gets a break, hopefully that is reciprocated. Perhaps that provides a little opportunity to catch up with a friend where a more child centred meet up wouldn't be practical? But yes, overall, there is no one size fits all. An individual approach is required and I agree it's often a juggling act.

@KimberleyClark @Arbesque That makes sense. Personally, I don't consider those insensitive comments. I consider them bloody stupid, patronising and just ridiculously wrong and the annoy the shit of me in any and all situations.

I do get twitchy if there's any suggestion that normal conversation should be massively curtailed in case you hurt someone's feelings eg If I say that I'm exhausted because I was up all night with a sick baby I am not terribly sympathetic if someone things I'm insensitive because my work colleague would LOVE to have the opportunity to be up all night with a sick baby. But saying, "you don't understand tiredness until you've been up with a sick baby all night" IS annoying. I'd still argue it's not so much insensitive as just stupid, as per my above statement though!

A colleague without children once made a comment about being exhausted when I'd just come back from maternity leave. She immediately apologised. which was nice of her but ridiculous - of course she can be tired even if she doesn't have a baby!

about the need for people with kids to be very conscious of the pain people without kids around them might be feeling, and how friendships can break up when one person is able to have kids and the other can’t.

Surely this is just a general point, though - and not specific to parenthood? Basically an exhortation to think how others might be feeling about a situation and try not to rub their nose in their misfortune/be a dick by bragging. Applies generally? Friend’s DH has lost his job? Don’t bang on about the fantastic new kitchen you’re getting. Friend’s child has developmental problems? Don’t bang on about how your child is a maths prodigy. Friend can’t have kids? Don’t bang on about the marvels of motherhood. And so on and so forth…..

I was always totally happy to meet up child free - ugh I had no desire to only talk about them!
I was the childless person for years - didn't get married til I was 40. I did find I was always the one expected to travel to people as it was easier for me (true). I didn't enjoy when I did travel that everything was child centred - even when the kids would have happily stayed in the other room playing they always had to sit and try and join in the conversation. Fine for a time but they got bored and I was pretty bored too!
I also found when I did have my own kids that they favour wasn't reciprocated- even when the other mums kids were at school at they had the time, I still seemed to be doing the travelling!
And my brain didn't stop working when I had kids - I missed being asked out to join my childless friends who all assumed I couldn't/wouldn't leave my kid and worse didn't have anything to talk about other than my kids.

@ricketybeauty

I don’t think it’s quite that we are “choosing” to be more focused on relationships centred on children and child friendly activities. It’s more that we don’t have much choice but to include these things in our lives now, as we have a super active toddler who needs to be taken out twice a day to something that he will find engaging and will burn off his energy, which means at least one of us taking him to the playground / a play group / a cafe / a play date to someone’s house that has toys in it and fewer hazards / the city farm at least once a day.

Some people do get kids that will happily sit while adults chat for longer than ten minutes or stay quiet in a gallery for longer than twenty, we didn’t.

The alternative would be to try to take him along to stuff that isn’t suitable for kids, and either stay there for twenty minutes max or piss other people off and have a grumpy stir crazy toddler on our hands.

We do both still do some stuff without him, and see friends without him in tow. But realistically there just is less time for this than there was before - because we have to fit in doing stuff with him and each other too, plus all the cooking, washing, admin, night wakings, sleep etc.

I can't have children and would love them. My sister gave birth two weeks ago to her first child and I'm struggling. I've bought my nephew presents, sent flowers, done everything I can possibly do but all my Mum now talks about is my nephew. My sister keeps on telling me I can't possibly understand how tired she is and I'm so lucky not to be able to go through it.

I don't avoid activities with children, I won't avoid my nephew and I love him and will spoil him but it still hurts. It hurts to be told I'll never understand a love between a child and his mother and it does hurt to be told that I can take my nephew out to places when he's older so I get to experience these things.

I get that they consume your life OP and you're jealous sometimes of your childless friends who can just go to the theatre and have a lie in the next day but it was your choice to have children, it's not always someones choice not to have children.

@WhenISnappedAndFarted your sister told you you’re lucky not to be able to have children? That is horrible.