Parents not upsetting people who can’t have kids

[PlumPudd]

Read this article in the Guardian with interest, about the need for people with kids to be very conscious of the pain people without kids around them might be feeling, and how friendships can break up when one person is able to have kids and the other can’t.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/06/new-parent-friend-children-baby-grief?CMP=fb_cif#comment-158514602

As someone with one kid and a second on the way, and some old friends / a sibling around me who don’t have kids (some who want them but haven’t found a partner, one who is struggling to conceive), I do try to be careful not to constantly talk about mine or say things like “gosh you went to the theatre then had a lie in the next day, I’m so jealous.” Even though I am very jealous. Also try to not always suggest meet ups with them at the park with baby in tow (though most meet ups do have to be like this as it’s just when I have more time to meet and gives partner valuable alone time to cook, read, be a person rather than a parent.

However, it is also legitimately hard not to sometimes talk about your kids or bring your baby along to a meet up, because when they are young, they consume your life in a way that is sometimes good and sometimes bad : exhausting!! I’d love to be able to chat to friends about the books I’m reading, the day trips I’ve been on, the exhibitions I’m going to visit, what’s going on in politics at the moment but since having a baby the time I have to do any of those things has literally shrunk by about 85%. You also do start spending a bit more time with other parents because they also care about objectively boring stuff like sleep schedules and catchment areas, and they also don’t mind hanging out in awful kid friendly cafes and soft plays.

Curious to hear views about what parents and those who want to be parents can do to accommodate each other’s lives without causing hurt.

@HotWashCycle your SILs would have stronger relationships with their own siblings so it was up to your brothers to ensure that their children spent time with you. The fact your brothers didn't do that e.g. ensure their sibling had a good relationship with their children shows what kind of brothers you have.

I had my child late, and my brothers who are older had absolutely no problem inviting me over to spend time with their children when I was childless.

Anyway if you have any assets make sure you write a will to leave it to people - whether they are friends or other less close relations - who have treated you with dignity over the years. This means don't leave it to your brothers and their children.

Would you say this to expectant mums who experience HG (severe morning sickness)?

What an odd comment to say and this from someone who has two IVF children.

Even those getting pregnant through IVF are allowed to complain without comments of implied ungratefulness.

I think people need to grow up, stop being so over sensitive and stop thinking the whole world revolves around themselves. It’s just common sense - if you know a friend is having IVF or has had miscarriages, don’t talk about your baby lots or invite them to coffee at a soft play cafe.

Likewise, if you are struggling try to remember your friend who is a mother might be going through PND, relationship problems or insanity inducing sleep deprivation, and not to take personally any minor comment about how hard parenting is.

verbalinfusion.wordpress.com/2017/06/02/lifting-the-crushing-weight-of-infertility-with-a-little-help-from-sisyphus/

This cartoon sets out what it feels like.

I found the worst thing was not people talking about their children, but when they made patronising comparisons - usually statements which begin 'You're so lucky you can...' or 'I wish I could...', usually followed by something insignificant like read a book, lie in etc.

@WhenISnappedAndFarted That sounds tough. I hope it gets easier for you

with all respect - it is impossible for you to understand the feeling of desperately wanting a life with children in it and having to attempt to come to terms with you may never have it.
so the annoying and frustrating parts of parenthood to you are the biggest desires of someone who can’t have children.
it hurts to the core when you casually moan about lack of sleep, some childless people would kill for it.
I speak on behalf of the previously infertile, 6 years I suffered before I had my miracle baby. For 6 years it consumed me, my body was broken, my life path had to be re thought - who was this person without children? I abandoned some of my best friends as it physically hurt me to see her living the life I would never have. Would my husband leave me, would I die alone? My friends wouldn’t include me anymore. The disappointment that my parents would never have grandchildren. know this all sounds dramatic - but it’s accurate.

so, from my perspective. Just understand and show that you are grateful for what you have. It’s not guaranteed for anybody. You are extremely fortunate to have your children and to have a body that allows you to easily make a family.
Complaining about your children/pregnancy/birth is a no go (I know you likely have valid reasons but know your audience) and mix it up. Yes, suffer the pain for 20 minutes to do an adult cafe. Choose a child activity that you can maybe take one eye off for at least 10 minutes. Get a babysitter for a meal/drinks out - and don’t talk about your kids.
I know it’s hard, but just trying to give a little of the non mum version of you occasionally will be appreciated more than you could imagine.

Which I completely get and if I knew I was with someone who was actively battling infertility and / or desperately desperately wanted children but couldn’t have them I would do most of the things you’re suggesting @Seasprayandsunshine and would hope most people would too.

I suppose the friends I was more thinking of in my original post are probably more in the - I’d like kids but haven’t found someone yet and worry sometimes that I might not - camp. Or in the, we’ve been trying to conceive for a bit and I’m slightly worried we might have to try alternative routes if something doesn’t happen soon, camp. And with them, I’d probably go for something a bit more mixed. Like sometimes inviting them to hang out at the park with the kid, but sometimes leaving the kid at home and doing something just with them. Having a bit of a grumble about the tough times when you’re just over your third awful cold / teething episode of the month and can barely keep your eyes open, and sometimes not talking about kids at all. And probably also trusting them to tell me if they were feeling worse than I thought and needed me to change the subject. Because they are dear friends / family.

I know splitting people into those categories is an oversimplification because I’m sure there will be people who are childless through lack of opportunity, who feel just as heartbroken as people who are medically infertile and have gone through years of IVF or similar. I know one friend who would have loved kids but didn’t find someone in time, finds it quite a struggle to be around her boss who has a husband and is going through IVF, talks a lot about how bereft she is and asks my friend to pick up her work whenever she has to go off for treatment or if she’s having a sad day, and just assumes my friend will be fine with it and work overtime or cancel her plans. Think my friend finds this woman’s big display of emotion and assumption that everyone will understand and grant her leeway / support her because she’s going through treatment a bit galling, when she doesn’t get any similar understanding or support.

I had ti give up my chance of having children to save my life - and then nearly died after the surgery. I was 32. I went back to work and apparently my colleagues had all been gossiping about this, but when I confirmed that yes I had really nearly died and children were not part of my future now, one colleague blurred out, “I’d rather have died than be unable to have my three.”

She was mortified - but she was supported in what she’d said by a room full of other mums, who said that she’d only said what any mother would choose.

I’ve lost so many friends over the years to low-level thoughtlessness, once they became parents and entered into the cult of motherhood. I didn’t blame any of them in particular but I do think being a mum confers a special status, and it was like all of these previously fab, interesting people became obsessed with the minutiae of domestic tedium whilst telling me it was the best thing in the world, that I didn’t understand, and that they couldn’t see how they’d ever cared about the silly things that occupied their childless life.

I also haven’t had a single Christmas off in seven years. I’m currently lobbying to get this one off and the parents I work with are acting like I’m King fucking Herod.

I know it’s not a war, it’s not us vs them, and that not every mum is like this, but all I can say is that my life has been infinitely improved by cutting every single mum out of it (including my own, but that’s another story). And I don’t apologise for that.

I’d rather have died than be unable to have my three.”

Wow what a see you next Tuesday! She should have got some sort of disciplinary for that, what a cow.

The cutting out thing is a difficult one. I had a friend who more or less cut contact with me right after we told her my wife was pregnant. We’d been really close for a good seven years and suddenly nothing, no replies to texts or hellos for months. Eventually one message after I left her a couple of missed calls asking if she was safe and okay and had I done something to upset her, where she more or less denied anything had changed between us and just said of course she was fine and why was I being weird. After that I took the hint and just left it in her court, but I was pretty hurt that someone I’d regarded as a very close friend just cut me out without any explanation. I think if she’d said, it’s the child thing, I just can’t be around people who have them, I’d have been upset still to lose her but would have understood. But going from really close to nothing with no explanation did hurt and made me feel like a fool, as though I was this keen idiot who had spent years thinking she was my good friend and she’d never much cared about me - probably not the case but that was the feeling. It might not have been the kid announcement but based on a few things she’d said before I think it probably was. I hope it helped her, but I still miss her.

I can understand someone blurting out something stupid and being mortified. But for your colleagues to back her up. That's pretty shocking.
Are they the same ones hogging the Christmas leave every year?

This was me..i actively tried for 7 years before conceiving..

I talked about my child a lot as a Lp from when my ds was 10 months old.. i had virtually nothing else going on in my world

I didn’t begrudge people having children either. I was happy for them but sad for myself. It was also difficult when friends and family got pregnant for the second, third, even fourth time when I had not managed to conceive once.

I don't think many childless people 'begrudge' others having children, they just feel sad everytime someone announces a pregnancy because it's another reminder that they can't have the thing they want most on the world.

Do you think bereaved daughters, who feel sad on Mothers Day, begrudge other people having Mothers?

Having been in the position of desperately wanting children but not having them I've been in the position of being heartbroken over insensitive friends and their big feet.

Without a shadow of doubt the BIGGEST by far hurt was caused by bloomin Facebook and it's mindless "Mummy challenge...Tag 6 friends you think are wonderful mummies. We don't celebrate being mummies enough....Ladies, get tagging!!" drivel and gradually everybody I knew would be appearing on my timeline. And while it was obviously done without any malice it was just cruel and wildly unthinking. I felt my nose was rubbed in it and completely excluded.

I also used to get very very upset about friends who, in small gatherings, would be slagging their children off. I get that its difficult being a parent, emotionally exhausting, draining etc. Eg. Round at a friend's house and few others turning up for cosy chatty night in, and one launched into a rant about her Daughter wanting comforting, saying she wasn't maternal and didn't know why she'd ever had a child. This wasn't a heartfelt 'I'm struggling and need to confide' chat, but a dismissive rant like Jimmy Carr might have. There was only about 5 of us and I'm just astounded she didn't realise I was sat there with tears in my eyes thinking "I'd give my right arm for that".

I also held a gathering at mine once for a different group of friends for a tv event (think Eurovision/World cup/Friends finale type event) and one girl had a 6 month old and all the woman discussed nothing but labour and giving birth ALL NIGHT. Not only spoiled the event for all the men who couldn't listen to the TV properly (and were feeling a bit queazy at some of the details! 🤣) but I had to keep leaving the room as I was so upset IN MY OWN HOME.

Theres also the times where it hurt just passing happy families walking past the park, or seeing babies in pushchairs, but of course that's life and can't be helped or avoided. I can't resent those instances, but I can scream about my ranty friend, and insensitive oaf friend leading a conversation about giving birth.

Just be aware, be sensitive, and realise there's a time and a place, and that comments like "I can't understand why anyone would want kids!" is something you shouldn't really say in front of the Woman who desperately does want them and isn't in a situation where she can have them.

Without a shadow of doubt the BIGGEST by far hurt was caused by bloomin Facebook and it's mindless "Mummy challenge...Tag 6 friends you think are wonderful mummies. We don't celebrate being mummies enough....Ladies, get tagging!!" drivel and gradually everybody I knew would be appearing on my timeline. And while it was obviously done without any malice it was just cruel and wildly unthinking. I felt my nose was rubbed in it and completely excluded.
Jesus Christ...
You need to stop associating with halfwitted bimbos like this. Most moderately intelligent people don't behave this way 🤢
Sorry, I totally get why you felt your nose was rubbed in it, but honestly, who does this shit? Bin them.

Don't be so judgey. If it hurt her feelings then it hurt her feelings. It's not for you to determine.

I was tagged several times on Facebook by friends inviting me to do the mummy challenge. I felt sooo uncomfortable about it. I thought of my friends who desperately wanted children and couldn't and how painful it must be to see all that. I also thought of my friends who had no children by choice and how utterly boring, sentimental and tacky they would find it! I thought of my friends with children who would have absolutely no interest in seeing my pictures of motherhood! So I declined the invitation.
I don't like all this "motherhood" stuff on social media. Of course being a mother is very important to me (the most important thing in my life) and of course I'll chat to other mums about the trials and tribulations of motherhood. We all need to vent sometimes. However, I don't like it when people are constantly advertising the fact they're a mother, talking of little else, like they're members of some elite club. I feel it creates division with the women who aren't mothers (whether they want to be or not).

I'm totally on board with the fact that it hurt her feelings
I think it's bloody awful. It wasn't the poster I was judging.

I find all the Facebook parenting celebration, look and my lovely kiddywinks stuff a bit sick making and I have one. Completely different of course if you’re desperate for kids and it’s reminding you of that sadness.

Though I know some people love it. I guess there is always going to be stuff on these platforms that is triggering, a relative who had struggled with alcohol finds all the gin o clock, wine time, look at us all raising a toast, Facebook stuff quite difficult as it makes them want to drink / reminds them that a lot of people see drink as essential to having a good time.

On a practical note there are privacy / content settings on Facebook and Instagram where you can say you want to see less adds about certain topics, and I’m pretty sure they include categories for kids and parenting as well as things like alcohol or pets - basically anything that could be triggering for people. I don’t think it hides content your friends are posting, but you can also hide people’s posts (without them knowing and while still staying friends with them) or put a 30 day pause on seeing their content.

I see this as completely different, I’m sorry if I misunderstood your question.

This would almost be like not driving my BMW to pick up a friend as they may want one in the future. Or not celebrating a promotion as a friend was scared that they couldn’t get one when they tried. I have had friends like this in the past - we aren’t friends anymore. I would never flaunt anything if I thought it would hurt a friend genuinely, but I would be upset if I felt I couldn’t share proud moments with them. Don’t get me wrong - if a friend was struggling to pay rent I would not gloat about my purchase of a fantastic new house etc.

And this also changes the thought processes of the childless person, rather than sadness - is it resentment that you aren’t the same friend that you were childless? So they aren’t mourning for the child they can’t have - they are mourning for their childless friend? If this is the case - I do understand - but life moves on. Kids or no kids, we are all different people than what we were when we 18, change is inevitable and if they can’t cope with that, are they someone you can still be friends with.
We can forget about the kids for a little bit, have a little break - but being a parent is a full time job and it does impact every area of our lives. We will never be the same person - and to expect that is unreasonable.

This would almost be like not driving my BMW to pick up a friend as they may want one in the future..

Yes, it’s exactly like that. Except that you’d need to live in a society that tells you that owning a BMW is the greatest achievement a woman can make, that non-BMW-owning people are immature/selfish/superficial and don’t know what true love is, and that you should be treated differently at work because you have a BMW. Oh, and it would need to be impossible for some women to obtain a BMW no matter how hard they tried or how much money they earned.

So not really at all like that.

@Seasprayandsunshine I do not think you can compare being childless due to losses or infertility with wanting a BMW. Whilst I understand what you are trying to say - they are not comparable

Exactly what @rainbowmilk said is correct

For me I wouldn’t personally say I resent friends who are having children whilst I’m struggling to stay pregnant but I do feel jealous of them. I wouldn’t say I could resent anyone for having a child, but I do feel jealous of those who see a positive test and go onto have a healthy baby. It isn’t anyone’s fault that losses and infertility happen, it is unfortunately life and my friends are not to blame for my problems. It has been hard for me watching my friend’s bump grow and grow and get bits for the nursery whilst I’m grieving over my losses and just about coping. Of course I feel jealous. It isn’t about my friends no longer being childless and changing and not being the same friend at all.

Any excuse to mention the BMW 😂

I don’t actually have a BMW 🤣