Parents not upsetting people who can’t have kids

[PlumPudd]

Read this article in the Guardian with interest, about the need for people with kids to be very conscious of the pain people without kids around them might be feeling, and how friendships can break up when one person is able to have kids and the other can’t.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/06/new-parent-friend-children-baby-grief?CMP=fb_cif#comment-158514602

As someone with one kid and a second on the way, and some old friends / a sibling around me who don’t have kids (some who want them but haven’t found a partner, one who is struggling to conceive), I do try to be careful not to constantly talk about mine or say things like “gosh you went to the theatre then had a lie in the next day, I’m so jealous.” Even though I am very jealous. Also try to not always suggest meet ups with them at the park with baby in tow (though most meet ups do have to be like this as it’s just when I have more time to meet and gives partner valuable alone time to cook, read, be a person rather than a parent.

However, it is also legitimately hard not to sometimes talk about your kids or bring your baby along to a meet up, because when they are young, they consume your life in a way that is sometimes good and sometimes bad : exhausting!! I’d love to be able to chat to friends about the books I’m reading, the day trips I’ve been on, the exhibitions I’m going to visit, what’s going on in politics at the moment but since having a baby the time I have to do any of those things has literally shrunk by about 85%. You also do start spending a bit more time with other parents because they also care about objectively boring stuff like sleep schedules and catchment areas, and they also don’t mind hanging out in awful kid friendly cafes and soft plays.

Curious to hear views about what parents and those who want to be parents can do to accommodate each other’s lives without causing hurt.

No, there seems to be a minority of posters misinterpreting what is being asked by most childless people, and then banging on about victim culture.
Most childless people don't want to be seen as victims or have mothers day cancelled or any such rubbish. They just don't want people making stupid insensitive comments.

@PurpleDaisies I do agree with your posts
“read the room” is what I would say to those and that is about anything. Wether it’s being sensitive that someone’s husband has just passed, not to go on about how amazing your partner is and you couldn’t go a day without him. Or when I moved in and my friends house fell through, I made a conscious effort not to go on about how amazing it was to move in with other half. Of course we all have a right to be happy and celebrate our happiness but, read the room you know?!

I do try to be conscious of not seeming to take my children for granted but my childfree friends do (seemingly) understand that my children are a (very!) large part of my life and accept that. I know the MN pressure is about seemingly entirely exsisting without reference to your homelife, but my family at home are always there in my and i know friends inevitably also have priorities and responsibilities too. I get mutual support from.my very few friends about life, my life includes my children.

If you are clise to a person it'd be very odd for them to not discuss their children.

Exactly

Absolutely. The Mother’s Day example. Mother’s Day exists and I send my own mum a card. I don’t want anyone sending me any “you’re like a mum” crap. I don’t want marketing emails. I’m happy to avoid Facebook. I’m happy for people to mention it. I just don’t want my friends banging on and on and on about how wonderful Mother’s Day was for them. That’s all.

Nobody wants people making stupid insensitibe comments about them, about anything. But people will always make them.
The people who will listen to you about the comments already don't make them. The people who make them won't listen.
It's all completely pointless.

And it does seem as if some people are asking those that are already perfectly nice and sensitive to edit their behaviors as well as their comments, and to go too far,

www.anniekirby.com/blog/grief-comes-in-different-colours

This gives a glimpse into how your friend may feel at times. I don’t know the answer, but understanding the pain that childless not through choice women may help 💐

I think it's a massive minefield tbh that unless it's brought up by the childless person your better off not trying to navigate at all. So don't talk about how I enjoy being a mum. Dont talk about much I love, feel proud etc as it's unrelatsble for a start.

I do know that childless people make their own choices to withdraw from your life. My bil hides upstairs every time I go there with my kids so thats uncomfortable for everyone, Including the kids. Even once a year is too much!

I’m the same. I celebrate Mother’s Day for my mum and Nan but I lost one of my twins on Mother’s Day and the other one the one after. Also knowing I won’t be a mother next year for Mother’s Day is hard. I don’t like the “celebrate Mother’s Day” or “kids eat free” emails as it makes me sad but I just avoid them and I’ve come off Facebook x

I know that there might be a lot of pain, but I respectfully chose not to engage. I will not go where I have not been invited. We do not talk about it much. Their life has to be celebrated and they need to be front and center from time to time. Like the kids in my life.

Of course people will always make stupid insensitive comments. But this thread is about childlessness and those are examples of the kind of comments childless people have to listen to over and over. Highlighting them and suggesting that people might stop and 'read the room' before making them might make some posters think before they speak.

If you are close to a person it'd be very odd for them to not discuss their children.

Very few people would expect that. It’s when it’s the only topic of conversation that’s the problem. I met with friends and was the only one without kids. Literally half an hour passed while I said nothing as they all discussed the minutia of buying school shoes and school applications.

You're not getting it. Highlighting it to WHO? The people who will listen to you are not the ones making the comments.

But there is the point of who decides a comment is stupid or insensitive? Of course, some are obvious. But a women commenting about what she did on Mothers day to a good friend, is that stupid/insensitive to a childless/free friend? Or is just normal conversation between friends?
It's not so simple, is it?

Thanks for sharing this, it is spot on.

I meet up with my three oldest friends from time to time, they are all grandparents now and mid 60s. I can't contribute to a lot of the conversation as I don't have kids but I always find it quite funny when they want to know how my cat is. 😂

You're not getting it. I am highlighting it to people on here who may have made thoughtless comments across the years, unaware of the affect it was having, and willing to change their behaviour.
Or are you saying such people don't exist?

@SheeWeee I think this is why it is best for friends to be able to tell each other how they are feeling inside. My friends are early years teachers and after my miscarriage I asked them if it was OK if we didn’t talk about their jobs too much when we met (they go on for ages about it - obviously, understandable it’s their jobs and they all do the same thing) some people don’t mean to me insensitive at all which is why I think it’s best to just say “I can’t talk about this today”

I think this is why it is best for friends to be able to tell each other how they are feeling inside

Which is exactly what the article says. I wonder if many posters actually read it before assuming this was some campaign from the Barrens trying to get a taboo put on all mention of children.

So I read the article again, and I am trying to understand this, and it sounds very, very hard. I understand that it is a form of grief, to understand and recognise that you will not be able to have child for whatever reason. I completely get that, I do. But the article kind of hints that this grief lasts a very long time? I am really trying not to be like an elephant in a china shop here, but I suppose I believe any type of grief that goes on too long can be problematic to the person experiencing it. Is that healthy to be treated as though you are in a period of grief for decades?

I can understand about being sensitive for decades, I am asking specifically about this feeling of grief.

If you lose a parent the intense grief eventually subsides onto a low level of grief that is bearable but sometimes ramps up eg on significant dates or during occasions when parents would normally be there.

I think that's what the article means. Not having a child isn't something you mourn for a couple of years and then get over. It is always a gap in your life.

Is there really any need for that?

People talking about their feelings with their friends is hardly novel or somehting we need to be told to do, is it?

One example I can think of that possibly isn’t covered by the “not being a dick” advice (which I agree with), is talking about how hard motherhood / parenthood is. Particularly with a new baby.

We we’re so so happy about our baby, but my wife (who had him, I’m having the second) really struggled in the first few months with the birth recovery, the cracked nipples, the night feeds, the exhaustion, the hormones etc. Similarly we’ve also had real low low points whenever we and the baby have been ill (try looking after a toddler when you both have gastro or covid and can barely stand but they have bounced right back to high energy mode). I’m pretty sure that at those times she / I will have said to friends and siblings, some of whom would like kids but haven’t got them yet and worry they never will, about how this is the hardest thing you’ve ever done or how low or exhausted you feel in that moment.

To people desperate to have kids that could seem really hurtful aka I wish I had what you had and here you are telling me how tough it is. But on the other hand - it is really tough and parents can also get vulnerable and desperately need to be able to say what a hard time they’re having to their friends and loved ones.

Spot on @Arbesque . It also makes me feel like that because I’ve not had a child that I’ve somehow failed at life.

@PlumPudd it was only in the initial very raw stage of coming to terms with my childless that I couldn’t bear to hear how hard being a parent was. I had a very rose tinted view of it. I am a lot more circumspect now.

AGREE!
The misconception that grief fades is not true.
Losing a pregnancy or never being a mother isn’t something you eventually get over and the grief never ends. I am speaking for most, but understand some may disagree which is 100% valid

When you are childless not by choice you do not just miss out on a baby or pregnancy, you miss out on first birthday, second birthdays etc, you miss out on doing mum things that you always thought you’d be doing, you mourn the life you thought you’d have. There is always another date that is coming up wether it’s Christmas, Mother’s Day etc which brings back memories of not having your child or not being able to have children to be with you.

I know most woman who I’ve spoken to who are childless not by choice who have accepted their new path will fully agree you never get over it - there will always be reminders