Parents not upsetting people who can’t have kids

[PlumPudd]

Read this article in the Guardian with interest, about the need for people with kids to be very conscious of the pain people without kids around them might be feeling, and how friendships can break up when one person is able to have kids and the other can’t.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/06/new-parent-friend-children-baby-grief?CMP=fb_cif#comment-158514602

As someone with one kid and a second on the way, and some old friends / a sibling around me who don’t have kids (some who want them but haven’t found a partner, one who is struggling to conceive), I do try to be careful not to constantly talk about mine or say things like “gosh you went to the theatre then had a lie in the next day, I’m so jealous.” Even though I am very jealous. Also try to not always suggest meet ups with them at the park with baby in tow (though most meet ups do have to be like this as it’s just when I have more time to meet and gives partner valuable alone time to cook, read, be a person rather than a parent.

However, it is also legitimately hard not to sometimes talk about your kids or bring your baby along to a meet up, because when they are young, they consume your life in a way that is sometimes good and sometimes bad : exhausting!! I’d love to be able to chat to friends about the books I’m reading, the day trips I’ve been on, the exhibitions I’m going to visit, what’s going on in politics at the moment but since having a baby the time I have to do any of those things has literally shrunk by about 85%. You also do start spending a bit more time with other parents because they also care about objectively boring stuff like sleep schedules and catchment areas, and they also don’t mind hanging out in awful kid friendly cafes and soft plays.

Curious to hear views about what parents and those who want to be parents can do to accommodate each other’s lives without causing hurt.

I mean I get this advice too, but sometimes you do say things like this, particularly when you are in the midst of it all. It can be really hard to remember all the different ways you can be an arsehole when you are miserable and exhausted?

Surely there has to be some balance of "That person isn't hurtful or vindictive, so I need not to take everything personally as well." It's about being sensitive, but it's also got to be about being accepted when you have inadvertently said something hurtful as well. Intention has to matter doesn't it?

It can be really hard to remember all the different ways you can be an arsehole when you are miserable and exhausted?

Excuse me? An exhausted, ill, in pain new parent is an "arsehole" for talking about it?

OP you and your wife’s feelings are completely valid too. I am sorry you have struggled, I know a lot of people struggle with a new baby and have traumatic births, illnesses etc. Your feelings matter. I mentioned this in an above post but sometimes as someone who hasn’t got children yet (hopefully one day I have a healthy pregnancy) you do feel a bit jealous when people talk of their children struggles. I feel guilty for feeling this way but I do feel pangs of jealousy when friends who are pregnant complain of morning sickness or complain of sleepless nights and tough times with their new babies. These friends are completely able to feel this way. I think it’s just after losing your babies or being childless you’d do anything to have these problems sometimes x

When you get beyond childbearing age you het to the stage when friends are becoming grandparents and that can be tough too.

That's not what I meant at all.

I had primary infertility for 3 years and secondary infertility for 10 years, which included a loss and IVF.

Basic consideration is fair (like dont make a huge deal of your pregnancy to someones face if you dont know their curcumstances) but also life doesnt magically stop people have kids and they will cross your path at some point.

I personally found secondary infertility FAR harder because having 1 child means you are forced to do all the things people with primary infertility can actively avoid.

With primary I barely ever was around kids and could avoid all that and distract myself with other stuff like holiday and nights out but with secondary I had:

• my child asking constantly for a sibling
• people giving opinions on my family (your too young to have more, you need to have another quick so they are close, you dont want an only child, think of the enviroment and stick to one etc...)
• I had to take my kid to school and child friendly places and be surrounded by families/babies/pregnant women
• the world is set for 2 kid families which is insult to injury (my DS was regularly left out of stuff for not having a sibling to join in)
• pregnant women suddenly dont think twice about telling you (a pracrical stranger) it was an unplanned oopsie baby they hadnt wanted
• Medical professional and random strangers call you selfish (litrally an IVF radiologist told me IVF should only be availible to those with primary, she had an attitude like we where stealing someone elses chance which is batshit) and say stupid shit like 'just adopt'

^ non of those things ever happened with primary, now granted I was younger (I assume older childless women may face more spontanious questioning about why they dont have kids) but most are very specific to secondary where as with primary no one ever really mentioned kids or assumed anything.

@Macaroni1924 no I appreciate the advice. I think that those closest to me know that this is something that makes me sad but not to the all consuming extent that it does. And to he honest these people now don't have the time to listen my problems. I generally try to work on the assumption that when they say and do insensitive things or even things that aren't really insensitive but they hurt me for whatever reason I file It away under "no bad intention". And I try my best to go to the events when I am invited or to be the most enthusiastic auntie I can be.

I still have time and I do hope to have a child on my own if needs be and that is something I'll be seriously looking into the logistics of next year.

I hope your friend finds success with her new partner 😊

I can’t speak for all childless women but for me, the things that upset me most are:

• The snarky ‘oh, that must be nice!’ comments, as you say, when I’ve done something that wouldn’t be possible if I had kids. A spontaneous meal out, trip to the cinema, mini-break or whatever. Yes, I have more time than you to do those things. I don’t feel guilty about it. Sorry. (Obviously it works both ways, though, and I would also be sensitive about talking about lots of fun evenings out with a mum-friend who was struggling with the loss of some of her own free time and social life).

• Minimising any difficult or tiring things happening in my life by saying ‘you don’t know the meaning of tired, you don’t have kids!’ or similar. Thankfully most of my friends are lovely and usually if I’ve said ‘sorry, I know I shouldn’t complain about being tired because you have it so much worse’ they’ll reply with ‘don’t be silly, you’re allowed to be tired’.

• Conversely (and this might well be very different for other childless women) I personally find it really upsetting when parents talk amongst themselves about their kids and then say ‘sorry Sam this must be really boring for you’. I’m your friend, your kids are the most important thing going on in your life right now. Of course I want to hear about them. Similarly, if a friend was struggling with parenthood and wanted to talk, I’d want them to feel they could talk to me. If I did find it too hard to hear about, then I’d hope I could have an honest conversation with a close friend about that.

• People making assumptions about my situation, either that I’m not planning on having kids or that I AM planning at some point but haven’t thought to start TTC yet. No one ever seems to consider that I might actively have tried already.

• There are also the generally thoughtless comments like the pregnant friend who’s slightly younger than me, who kept going on about how worried she was about being an ‘old’ mum and how her pregnancy was risky because she had just turned 35. She wasn’t to know that I was TTC at the time or hoping to have kids at some point, but she also had no reason to assume I wasn’t, so a little sensitivity around the subject wouldn’t have hurt.

Basically, just recognise it’s a potentially sensitive subject, have some awareness of who you’re talking to and that there can be all sorts going on that you might not be aware of, so don’t make assumptions. Communicate honestly with your friends as much as you can, and, as someone else succinctly put it, just don’t be a dick.

Me and my husband struggling and I'm kind of over feeling depressed about it. I like to think I listen to friends if they are having a tough time with kids I even like spending time with baby relatives because you can have a lot of fun!

But things to avoid doing please (light-hearted):

1. making infertility an issue. The amount of times ppl have gone "I was taking little Timmy to school and... Oh sorry!" while looking at me. Like thanks for the infertility reminder. Stop being awkward!

2. the fake/patronising "oooh I so wish I could go do all the cool things you get to do because you are child-free". Of course parents will miss their old free lives but us non parents can tell when it's put on for our "benefit"

3. Don't assume we want what you have or covet your life. If I could have kids they'd be well nicer than ur sprogs (joke... Ish)

4. Don't assume we can't understand your issues. Yes having a child is life changing - but so is infertility for a lot of ppl. It makes you entirely re-evaluate life and have a deeper empathy for others.

5. Bonus point: Yes, being a new parent is very hard but remember to be considerate of others. I walk with a stick and it's shocking the amount of ppl who make me dive out of the way with their buggies. If I can move for disabled ppl while pushing nieces & nephews, so can you!!

@Jan6755 A new parent who is sleep deprived, recovering from birth and struggling is not an "arsehole" for seeking support to a childless friend or relative. If your friend or relative has asked you not to because they don't feel able to support you for whatever reason and you persist, perhaps you have a point.

You've put into words a fair bit of what I found really difficult about TTC number 2. It's a different beast.

That is what you said though, so perhaps you should rephrase

Following.

I've found the easiest way to not hurt people's feelings is to show great interest in their lives rather than talk at length about your life with kids.

I have a lot of old friends who, for one reason or another ended up not having children. Yet even when my two DCs were very young and 'all-consuming' I still loved visiting these child-free friends and hearing what they were up to, as not having children means they generally lead very interesting lives.

I adore my DCs but love hearing about other types of living.

That is a lovely attitude to have @Ticksallboxes & a good life motto

There are also the generally thoughtless comments like the pregnant friend who’s slightly younger than me, who kept going on about how worried she was about being an ‘old’ mum and how her pregnancy was risky because she had just turned 35. She wasn’t to know that I was TTC at the time or hoping to have kids at some point, but she also had no reason to assume I wasn’t, so a little sensitivity around the subject wouldn’t have hurt

Sensitivity works both ways...she was seriously worried about her health and pregnancy and you only cared about how you felt about that....you can't demand sensitivity when you don't have any for others.

And I can also completely understand how, if you don’t have kids but want them, you probably will be sat there as your friend talks about how hard it is, with a little bit of you thinking “I’d take your cracked nipples and exhaustion if I got a baby along with them and be happy about it.” Expect for the gastro, nobody would willingly take the gastro!!

I guess as another poster said, some of it has got to come down to trying to remember that even if someone may occasionally say something that is hurting your feelings (and this could go either way, because if a childless friend asked you ti stop gushing about your new baby, or never asked a question about them that could also feel hurtful) they probably don’t know they are doing it or mean it that way, and if the hurt is too much you can always just say it’s a bit of a sensitive topic and ask if you talk about something else for a while. And if they don’t take the hint or continue after this has been said, you can chalk it up to them being a dick and back away from the friendship for a bit.

Yes as anyone whose experienced grief knows, it never goes away really, it just gets easier to bear, then occasionally something will come up that makes it harder again.

Expect for the gastro, nobody would willingly take the gastro!!

I would. Gladly. For months and months.

Even on a thread like this, there’s a lack of sensitivity.

Honestly I just don't think you can generalise on what's best to say or do, as everyone is different and having their own life experiences. I personally love to hear about my friends kids because my not being able to have them doesn't delete the fact that I still love children, and I also care about my friend and the things she might be going through in her life. I'm also interested in the next generation of humans and I like to keep in touch with how they think and see the world. But my brother and his wife can be quite hurtful, even though I'm not easily hurt. I've always shown involvement and interest in their lives and tried to be a good Aunty, but they talk constantly of a childless life being an empty one, a "garden without flowers". My brother talks of childless people as not contributing anything to the world, and how basically what is the point of our existence. During the pandemic they kept talking about how much harder it was for people with children, and laughing at us childless people "doing up our homes and gardens" during the pandemic. I'm sure anyone could see that's not the right kinds of things to say, though I try not to react. It's hard for a childless person at times because if I say to a mum how lovely and precious their kids are, I feel they might think I don't understand how hard it can be, but if I mention how hard it must be sometimes, someone might think I'm gloating. We never know what particular sensitivities a person might have. The fact is there just is a separation that occurs when people's lives go in different directions. A few of my friends veered off in their early Mum days, preferring the support of friends with kids, and I could totally understand it, they are starting to drift back now the kids are growing up and our lives are running on similar trails again. Another friend of mine loves the break from talking about being parents with someone who isn't and begs me talk about other things. So no-one is the same. I just think there's no perfect situation, everyone's sensitive at times, parent or not. And also I recognise that nobody's life is perfect, as much as it may seem so on the outside.

29 throw ups in 36 hours, hospitalised because my heart rate went so high from dehydration I had to be monitored and put on a medication drip because I couldn’t keep down my meds and was at risk of seizures without them….

You know what this is true for me. I have one friend who is a fairly new mum and despite all that brings, despite not being as readily available to meet up she never fails to take a sincere interest in me and my life and work and pets. And I do the same in return about her life even if it hurts sometimes.

Most of my other friends glaze over and disengage quickly once it isn't about their life and kids and I get that it's all consuming for them but it can leave me feeling like as long as I'm childless I won't matter or have purpose.

I was on both sides of this.

I remember the pain of watching my friends, often younger than me, breezing through their pregnancies one by one when I was losing one baby after another. It was horrendous, the worst during their pregnancies. Then when the babies were here it was better. I personally didn't mind being around them so much or hearing/seeing what they're up to. Yes, it saddened me a bit that I couldn't do similar activities with my own child, but it felt easier to go through than watching them pregnant, personally.

As I couldn't relate to their new lives as parents, we were just catching up mostly on our own. They were mentioning their kids but not much as they simply wanted a breather from them! So, gym, a drink, food, some kind of an activity. Anything, really! Talking about us, as adult people, as friends. Just normal?

Now I'm a mother myself, I am very mindful not to talk too much about DS to those who I know are going through their own struggle in terms of trying to become parents. If they ask, I talk about him, but otherwise, very sporadically. I have been there and I am just doing this because I care for them. I have plenty of people to blab about my son to, I don't need to put them through this.

It's an interesting dynamic. A close friend of mine was one of those who got pg on first try, breezed through the pregnancy and frankly it killed me then. Now I have my little boy and she's suffering from secondary infertility and I can still see this very familiar pain in her eyes. So, just a thought, this happens to those who already have children too. It's not something one can just switch off. It's quite simple really, just be mindful.

I also don't talk much about DS to my friends who are single or who don't talk about having kids. This would either hurt them or they aren't really into the whole kids thing, I don't know, so what's the point in talking excessively.

Yes. I would take that if I had a baby at the end of it.

Where did I say I didn’t care or wasn’t sensitive to her worries?! I supported her through all of her worries, provided all the reassurance I could offer, listened for hours on end. I’d do it again in a heartbeat. My only point was that at no point in voicing her concerns about being ‘old’ at 35 did she seem to remember she was talking to a 37 year old childless friend.