Parents not upsetting people who can’t have kids

[PlumPudd]

Read this article in the Guardian with interest, about the need for people with kids to be very conscious of the pain people without kids around them might be feeling, and how friendships can break up when one person is able to have kids and the other can’t.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/06/new-parent-friend-children-baby-grief?CMP=fb_cif#comment-158514602

As someone with one kid and a second on the way, and some old friends / a sibling around me who don’t have kids (some who want them but haven’t found a partner, one who is struggling to conceive), I do try to be careful not to constantly talk about mine or say things like “gosh you went to the theatre then had a lie in the next day, I’m so jealous.” Even though I am very jealous. Also try to not always suggest meet ups with them at the park with baby in tow (though most meet ups do have to be like this as it’s just when I have more time to meet and gives partner valuable alone time to cook, read, be a person rather than a parent.

However, it is also legitimately hard not to sometimes talk about your kids or bring your baby along to a meet up, because when they are young, they consume your life in a way that is sometimes good and sometimes bad : exhausting!! I’d love to be able to chat to friends about the books I’m reading, the day trips I’ve been on, the exhibitions I’m going to visit, what’s going on in politics at the moment but since having a baby the time I have to do any of those things has literally shrunk by about 85%. You also do start spending a bit more time with other parents because they also care about objectively boring stuff like sleep schedules and catchment areas, and they also don’t mind hanging out in awful kid friendly cafes and soft plays.

Curious to hear views about what parents and those who want to be parents can do to accommodate each other’s lives without causing hurt.

I don't think childless people are asking to be included in everything. Just not to be made feel inferior ir subjected to thoughtless and insensitive comments or behaviour.

On Mother's Day, we're told we have to "make space for" those who aren't mothers for whatever reason.

Where have you seen this? I appreciate the opportunity to opt out of mother’s day marketing but I can’t think of anything beyond that.

I have been on both sides of this and for me, it is about consideration on all sides really.

Before i had my fertility treatment, i would make an effort to visit friends with kids, nieces, nephews etc, ask after them, spoil them. The only times i stood back was occassionally after ANOTHER neg preg test, if my MH was particularly low. I also appreciated consideration from others (and not be the friend that zoomed me to tell me all about her pos preg test through which i had to fake a smile and ask loads of questions when really i wanted to have a good cry and deal with it in my own time.) A text would have been fine.

Equally, after our treatment, i was conscious to dial down all the birth chat unless someone specifically asked, the preg chat to my friends who i know would love kids but haven't met the right person yet or have had multiple unsuccessful ivf rounds etc. I make an effort to meet up with them without my baby. Talk about non baby stuff. Plus it gives DD and DH a few hours of nice bonding time together.

Basically just try to be a good and thoughtful friend. We will all make mistakes - we are after all human, but at least try to minimise them a bit!

I have to agree with this, I'm afraid.
Totally on board with being sensitive to others feelings, not deliberately being a dick, etc, in a general sense, but no, we can't live our lives being hyper aware of what anyone we meet might be going through and walking on eggshells in case we make a faux pas.
Everyone has some shit going on.

I don’t really talk about my kid to anyone unless they either ask, or the reason I know them is through some tedious baby-related thing. We did NCT and our friendships, while based around child rearing, have little to do with it now.

Some people become baby bores and some don’t. I guess those consumed by parenthood are less likely to be sensitive to those around them who may not want to talk about their child for various reasons, but there’s a good chance that friendship would die anyway, as people blindly banging on and on and on about their children bores the shit out most people.

I have 3 friends who would love a baby. I have a toddler DD who I struggled to conceive, had a horrible pregnancy with constant threat of miscarriage then a premature birth, so I am also no stranger to the pain other people's pregnancies and subsequent children can cause to others. One of my friends has totally cut me out which is really hurtful. I have never mentioned DD to her past telling her I was pregnant, she has never asked about her, we had a bit of chit chat since about other stuff but the friendship has ended, not of my choosing. The second friend I also never mentioned DD to her or spoke about my pregnancy unless she asked. I don't bang on about how wonderful it is and I don't send photos unless she asks. I also don't put anything re DD on social media so that also saves anyone who is struggling, but that's mainly for her privacy. The third friend I do the same as for the second and just don't really mention DD unless she asks but she is obviously trying to put her pain to one side and not let it affect our friendship. We talk about her fertility issues and if we have arranged to meet and its a time when I have DD I offer her a DD free meet or to bring her as I know she sometimes likes having a little one to play with etc.

I do think that women like myself who have children easily, are given a golden place in society and it’s easy to forget that.

Not so much me as I was a single parent, and have a child with disabilities (ones that are not so in vogue to talk about). Going out to work or staying at home though comes judgement… how we bring them up… And that has reminded me that we really do prop up married mothers and give them a bit of red carpet - I guess it is as old as time.

So it’s good just to be mindful that although children might be our whole world, and society loves us for that, but it’s really horrible if you feel outside of that, particularly if you want that, either by trying to conceive or just not finding a partner. So tough. We need sisterhood for all women whatever they are going through!

I don't know...
I have children and they are a huge part of my life- same as DH and to a lesser extent my dogs.

Hiding them away and not including them or making out that they don't have much meaning to me is so wrong.

Why shouldn't I share what is most important to me with my friends?
Friendships move and evolve and sometimes we outgrow friends... that's life.

We all have struggles and unfortunately there isn't such a thing as a "bubble" to protect us from things that can/ will/ might upset us.
I think it's far more important to learn to deal with our emotions, sometimes acept the crappy bits in life and look at the things we have rather than what we don't have.

I do think that women like myself who have children easily, are given a golden place in society and it’s easy to forget that.

Is this sarcasm? I don't think any women are given a golden place in society.

But this isn't what people are talking about. Obviously mothers day is hard for some people including those who have lost their own mother or a child; but so is Christmas and multiple other days during the year.

I think you're bringing this debate down to a level that no one intended.

This will be an unpopular take, influenced by my own circumstances (and because I DO try to be mindful)… but sometimes I think it goes too far.

Being a mum is exhausting, and all-consuming, and also the best thing in life - I’m a widowed single mum so it’s really all I’ve got - and sometimes I feel a bit dumped on by my childfree women friends who think nothing of talking about their yoga holiday in Cape Verde, their weekend camping plans, nice meals out, etc, in front of me.. and yet also seemingly have the time and headspace to feel touchy that I have a child and they don’t. I became a mum late in life, have very little else in my life just now, and even despite my circumstances I can feel resentment coming from some quarters.

I do get it. I only became a mum at 42 so I could see the bleak heartbreak of childlessness. I wish we’d had another. But sometimes I feel pissed off that mums have to be quiet and make way for others’ feelings.

Probably I ABU - ok definitely. I have a chip on my shoulder…

But it's also important to be sensitive towards others. No one's asking you to pretend your children don't exist. Just to think a bit sometimes when dealing with childless friends.

I mean, I talk about my kid with my friends, but only as much as I'd talk about my job or what I've watched on TV or anything else!

My point really is that if I had a friend who now only wanted to do park or soft-play and talk mainly about the kids, I'd be mentally pigeon-holing them as a "mum friend" and I'd probably start to prioritise seeing them less. Same as I would about any friend that suddenly only wanted to speak about their job over coffee etc etc.

I am surprised how many people have had people cease contact with them over having kids though - I would have thought that's a really extreme circumstance.

I think some mothers give themselves a golden place in society.

But sometimes I feel pissed off that mums have to be quiet and make way for others’ feelings.

Don’t you think we all do that?

I have no idea!

Agree.

It is further demonstration of this victim culture.

So what now? Should those who have never been proposed to or married or are divorced start insisting their engaged and married friends 'tone down' their exuberant conversations about their weddings or anniversaries?

Those who have health problems start asking those who are well to not talk about the great sporting or travelling opportunities they can take part in as healthy people?

I mean tell me what part of life doesn't include some sort of exclusion-by-proxy?

And if you've actively chosen not to have children as a positive choice, why be derisory about those who haven't talking about their children. Surely you're neutral about it?

We are struggling to conceive.

Personally, we love spending time with friends/ family's children and hearing all about them.

Our lack of success conceiving doesn't make us uninterested in the lives of people/ children we care about.

I really don't like it when people pussyfoot around as if I'm going to be upset if they talk about their kids.

The best thing you can do if you know someone who is struggling to conceive, is actually ask them if it bothers them or not, and then be sensitive to their reply. Everyone is different. We would be really sad if our loved ones felt like they had to filter themselves on our behalf - we love their kids!

Your life is your life. Everyone has different struggles - some are finding someone, or having kids, or having no money worries etc. you can’t shut every part of your life off for fear of offending or hurting people. Obviously don’t go on about you falling pregnant on the first go to your friend who is struggling to conceive but otherwise, your life is your life.

If they have issues then they may need to hand around other friends.

When I was single, I tended to meet up with another single mum at weekends. We’d go out together when we didn’t have the kids and with the kids when we did. But sometimes we also went out with couples etc.

If you knew someone was really struggling with not being married, or feeling down about their health etc, don’t you think it would just be nice not to go on and on about it? That’s just common courtesy. Save it for other friends.

I think the world has learnt to be a lot more sensitive and inclusive towards disabled people and has stopped looking down on unmarried women. That is surely a good thing?

This

I do try and be mindful, I'm not really a 'woke' type but I definitely try to be kind.

We can be sensitive to others feelings without being censored. I don't see it as black or white.

I've been engaged and had a few relationships in my life but due to a chequered family history (grandparents divorces etc), people being single mothers, I always knew from a young age that I'd never be a single mum. I have 2 best friends, one a single mum at 18, the other single mum at 27 after having DC at 24. Both their lives were hard - the latter easier as she waited a few years. I've always been on the fence so 50/50 re having kids, when my biological clock ticked in 30s/40s I got more pressure but even then in late 30s/40s I still ensured I took MAP to ensure not getting pregnant.

I did have a few events in 30s - friends parties with kids at houses/parks where sometimes I felt wistful especially if not in a relationship, but I made my peace with that.

I'm now happily single (but trying to date) and am a doting aunt/aunt-in-law to DB and his DW's DS and to SIL's BD and his DW's two kids. Fell out with half siblings a few years ago so no relationships there with their DC.

I've also mixed and made very good friends with NDNs who have DC and have seen their struggles with childcare and family life. Hasn't stopped them inviting me over/to family parties etc. You make your peace with life!

Good interesting article though, food for thought.

A genuine, strong friendship should be able to withstand conversations about this tbf.

Talk about the joys and tribulations of parenting with friends who also have kids. It comes across a bit tone deaf to complain to a non parent about how jealous you are that you can't have a lie in when you chose to have a child and won the lottery in being able to actually have one. Unless your friend is known to be happily childfree, that is.

It's a bit dull when you haven't got kids to just listen to someone bang on about them for a whole meetup. Just be a bit more socially aware, make sure you ask questions about them and their life too.

You also do start spending a bit more time with other parents because they also care about objectively boring stuff like sleep schedules and catchment areas, and they also don’t mind hanging out in awful kid friendly cafes and soft plays.

I've not found this really. Yes I've made new parent friends and some pre-existing friends now have kids too but I haven't changed my social group much and don't hang out less with former friends that don't have kids just cos I have one. My friendships with childfree/childless friends are just as close. Some take an active role in my kid's life which is nice, others it's lovely to have a friendship that's based on other things.