Parents not upsetting people who can’t have kids

[PlumPudd]

Read this article in the Guardian with interest, about the need for people with kids to be very conscious of the pain people without kids around them might be feeling, and how friendships can break up when one person is able to have kids and the other can’t.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/06/new-parent-friend-children-baby-grief?CMP=fb_cif#comment-158514602

As someone with one kid and a second on the way, and some old friends / a sibling around me who don’t have kids (some who want them but haven’t found a partner, one who is struggling to conceive), I do try to be careful not to constantly talk about mine or say things like “gosh you went to the theatre then had a lie in the next day, I’m so jealous.” Even though I am very jealous. Also try to not always suggest meet ups with them at the park with baby in tow (though most meet ups do have to be like this as it’s just when I have more time to meet and gives partner valuable alone time to cook, read, be a person rather than a parent.

However, it is also legitimately hard not to sometimes talk about your kids or bring your baby along to a meet up, because when they are young, they consume your life in a way that is sometimes good and sometimes bad : exhausting!! I’d love to be able to chat to friends about the books I’m reading, the day trips I’ve been on, the exhibitions I’m going to visit, what’s going on in politics at the moment but since having a baby the time I have to do any of those things has literally shrunk by about 85%. You also do start spending a bit more time with other parents because they also care about objectively boring stuff like sleep schedules and catchment areas, and they also don’t mind hanging out in awful kid friendly cafes and soft plays.

Curious to hear views about what parents and those who want to be parents can do to accommodate each other’s lives without causing hurt.

This is why it is virtually impossible to get it right!

Some people will get upset if you talk about a subject, and others will get upset if you avoid the subject, but you are supposed to know how they feel without asking or being told. Especially if it is a random work colleague where you don't know anything about their life outside work.

I hope things work out for you @fallguys2

The thing to avoid is telling people how incredible it is to have kids, life would not be complete without them, etc,

@DoodlePug You've hit the nail on the head for me. I have various friends who have chosen to remain childless, and a sibling who is struggling to conceive, and I can't think of a situation or conversation where it's even necessary to say things like this, yet people do. Either you've chosen to have kids, in which case you (hopefully) already know incredible kids are. And if you don't, why do you need someone telling you how you should feel? Either that, or you don't have them (for whatever reason) - in which case, why do you need to be told how much better life is with kids? It's just inconsiderate and thoughtless either way.

We seem to have tiptoed into a culture where instead of being reasonably mindful of other people's sensitivities, we're now expected to feel ashamed of anything that has gone well in our lives, while legitimising other people feeling offended if we do not perform our shame well enough. It's ridiculous. I don't expect everyone around me to kowtow around my sensitivities like they're navigating some kind of minefield. I expect myself to get over things to the extent where I can allow other people to live their own lives without forcing them into constant self scrutiny and self-imposed silence.

Absolutely.

I’m childless and suffered a loss in April this year. I’m not sure what the future holds and so not sure if I can answer this fully but having a loss whilst being around pregnant friends or those with children can be very hard

I do not think until you have experienced loss or unable to have children you can fully understand.

That being said I do fully understand it must be hard to feel unable to discuss your pregnancies or children with friends who are struggling or who have lost. One of my friends was talking to me yesterday about her morning sickness and admittedly I felt jealous - of course she’s allowed to be upset she’s got bad sickness but I’d do anything to have that and have a healthy baby.

You should never feel bad for having children or healthy pregnancies - and no one should make you feel guilty.

What helped me the most is being open and honest with friends and them doing the same with me. Sometimes I’m happy to chat about it and sometimes I’m not. Maybe they feel like on egg shells on sometimes and then they’d tell me etc

Although the comment about having to make space on Mother’s Day did get me a bit. You’re allowed your opinions but personally I think it’s nice on Mother’s Day to acknowledge my babies I lost and my friends who are desperate to be mums.

I'm still not seeing anything that isn't covered by "don't be a dick".

Some people are insensitive assholes. But they are insensitive assholes in general, the topic doesn't matter, and they aren't going to change anyway.

I think it's impossible to live life constantly thinking about other people's situations and potential pain, we aren't built that way. If you know people in your life are trying to conceive then obviously, be mindful and don't ask intrusive questions if months pass by with no pregnancy, but it's unfair to expect people to change their behaviours and lifestyles, or not celebrate certain milestones, to always suit others. There's got to be middle ground.
I'm childfree by choice (so subject to constant questioning and judgement) and don't want to always sit in child-friendly spaces - noisy cafes or soft play areas are my personal hell - but I'm well aware children take over people's lives and, while adults-only events and meet-ups are preferable, it's just not always possible. At least meeting friends in child-friendly spaces means I still get to see them.
Invite your friends to things, or mention they're welcome to attend if it's a child-led activity but there's no pressure etc. Don't expect people to come to child-focused events, but make sure they know they're welcome if they want to be there. Personally, I don't want to go to a five-year-old's party and though I'd appreciate the invite, I certainly wouldn't expect one and I'd understand why I might not get one, too.
I can't imagine the pain of not being able to conceive, but people with kids are often a package deal and they should be allowed to speak about their children or share happy moments from their lives as parents without fear of judgement or being branded insensitive.
I'm about to donate my eggs for the second time to try and help those struggling to conceive, so it's not like I'm a callous cow not wanting to try and help or consider the feelings of those without children. It's important to have adult-only time with friends, but it's not fair to expect your pain or struggles to be your friends' main priority. Life is shit and hard a lot of the time, we all have stuff going on. It's just not possible to constantly take on board other people's pain on top of your own. Don't be a dick but everyone should bear in mind that we've all got to put own lifejackets on first.

THIS. You basically said everything I wanted to but a lot more succinctly while I rambled on haha.

That's not quite on the topic of the conversation imo. We all accept inclusivity and awareness of others is good. But that doesn't mean certain aspects of life and conversation are not exclusionary by nature of the situation. I'm disabled myself. I used to love jogging and exercise. I can't now and am piling on weight.

I don't expect my friends not celebrate reaching a 10k running milestone with me.

I'm happy for them and revel in their success. I appreciate that their joy isn't a deliberate infliction of pain to me.

Other times they listen to me bemoaning my circumstances and I return the favour by giving a listening ear in their joys/angst.

Must be so tough for you that my kids get to make a Father’s Day card for other male figures in their life because their dad is dead. <hugs>, hope you’re managing ok after after to make a tiny bit of space so people less fortunate than you feel a bit less shit. I can see it’s challenging.

@PlumPudd everyone is different and for me it’s about friends/family being upfront an honest about what makes them feel happy or uncomfortable. I went through 7 years of ivf for my dd. Life felt it was on hold, so we make plans and possibly cancel if it works? Need to stay in this job in case I need maternity leave and so on. In that time one colleague had 3 children, from her 2nd and 3rd she took me aside privately to tell me which I thought was so kind and really appreciated. I honestly hand on heart can say I got that giddy excited feeling for her each time. I cried afterwards, not out of jealousy or bad feeling for her but I suppose mourning that again it wasn’t me. She was the very first person I told when it happened and she was an amazing support throughout. During this time another colleague was on her 2nd year of ivf and I felt that I should tell her before it was announced. When I took her aside and told her, her response was congratulations you don’t need to tell me I’m fine. I honestly felt like I had pissed her off so just shows that one person can feel one way and another differently.
The things that piss me off the most are people telling me to stand on my head or lie on my side. By this point I think I’ve literally done cartwheels down the street naked just in case it worked so stop with the shitty advice. People saying oh no we are definitely not having any more (and all the variations) - I would love that choice but don’t think it’s something you say to someone who has again been trying for nearly 6 years (desperately want a 2nd!) My cousin said this repeatedly and I once caught his wife giving him a sharp dig in the ribs🤣I left behind a friend many years ago who was in a same sex relationship and one night said to me she wanted children. I told her that can still happen for you and her response was no that’s unnatural! She was supporting me through ivf but felt it was unnatural, why was it ok for me and not her.
I am one of the lucky ones who has had a positive outcome and a precious gift. I wouldn’t wish infertility on my worst enemy but it has never made me not want to celebrate my friend/families children. Children are such a special part of our lives whether we want, or have, our own.

It's a hard one, and everyone is different so a conversation from either side is the best way to handle it.
I have been on both sides, struggled to conceive and had a few friends who were always telling me how amazing kids were, how life without dc must be so sad and unfulfilling or just constantly complaining about how hard their life was. And my favourite 'when are you going to have a baby then? Oh I didn't know you'd been trying so long, I got pregnant first time!'. But I was always happy for friends and family having dc, enjoyed spending time with their dc for the most part or helping out when they had newborns and were exhausted.

Then after i did conceive and had a healthy baby had a friend who was struggling to conceive and because I knew what it was like I was very conscious of not making every meet up or conversation about my baby. It was difficult because I always had the baby with me for the first year or so but while she was small it was easy enough to arrange meet ups around nap time so I could have a grown up conversation.

It's possible to be a parent and maintain friendships and interests outside of that. Admittedly in the early years it's harder to be physically away from dc (especially when BFing) and tricky if a friends or family feel they can't be around a baby but again, a conversation about their feelings, acknowledging them and agreeing or finding a compromise that's suits both.

It’s a good article. As a childless by circumstance woman I’m guilty of phasing out some friends with children although I have kept in touch with others. I’ve also made a point of building friendships with other child-free and childless women and couples.

I think most people can be sensitive to other people’s situations but I think there is a small section of society that almost beatify motherhood. We have a baby coming in our family and at the moment nothing else is important - not my promotion, not the baby’s aunt’s new job, not a cousin’s career change and massive sports achievement. Even my landmark birthday lunch was over in 3 mins before the scan pictures and links to travel systems came out.

I think it’s a subconscious thing. My boyfriend sometimes talks about how he “can’t wait to be a grandparent”. His kids are 12 and 15. But he’s already feeding them this “when you’re a parent…” thing like it’s a done deal - he’s assuming they will want to have children and will get to have them. So right from their teens those kids are being told subconsciously that this is the path they’ll go down, and if it doesn’t happen for whatever reason, that can make the alienation or feeling left out, or left behind, even more pronounced.

I'm childless not my choice. I just haven't met anyone yet. I'm still young enough that it could still happen for me but to be honest it isn't looking likely. It physically hurts. And every pregnancy announcement hurts.

And as I get older it's get harder not just because time is running out but because it gets to the point everyone I know now is coupled up with children. And they don't have time for me. And to be honest I'm often left feeling silly for even trying to suggest we do something. Even child friendly things because they are busy with other friends who do have kids.

I don't know what the answer is, I appreciate tact as far as is possible and to be honest I just never mention that I'm struggling. I don't want to be that person demanding people don't talk about their kids etc. And I do love their children and enjoy being around then when in invited.

Well of course most people would .

It's the blanket "tone it down in case someone, somewhere is triggered by it" that's wrong. It doesn't allow for your save it for other friends, does it?
We're not talking about deliberately rubbing someone you know is struggling's face in it.

@CavernousScream The worse part is the “victim culture” comment at the end. I think it is a lovely thing that your children make Father’s Day cards for important male figures and I’m sorry for your and their loss x

The older I get, the more grateful I am for people demonstrating that they're not worth bothering with.

There are seven billion people on this planet, and I have time for about 30-40 of them. If someone is rude, insensitive, self-centered etc, then I will happily cross them off the list of people I need to remember the birthday of.

Don't be a dick is a good rule, and we should all get to decide our own sub-criteria for who is a dick.

Well said.

But that's not what anyone is asking you to do. If you don't make stupid remarks to childless people such as you don't really grow up until you have a child, until you have a child you're really selfish, I should have first Dobson on Christmas leave because I have a child then you're doing fine.
If you do, just cut it out.

Totally agree.

Oh, stop it 🙄
As someone upthread already said; all that is covered by "don't be a dick".

There seems to be a lot more being asked / expected here.

I have a child. I meet my friends who have kids regularly for play dates etc. I meet my friends who don't have kids on other occasions like evenings out or even on a weekend when DH watches DS. I chat to my childless friends about other things, though they will always ask after DS. I don't make him the focus of the conversation. It's really not that hard.

@2000lightyearsaway123 This must be so hard for you. I struggle with infertility but have my partner here to support and listen, he is in the same boat. Yours is because you haven’t met that one person yet. It also gets harder to meet people once all your friends are coupled up with kids. I don’t think talking about it makes you that person, I think closer friends would appreciate an open conversation and it gives you at least someone you can lean on for support. I hated unsolicited advice and niceties when ttc so if this next part comes across like that I’m so sorry. You still have time and you genuinely never know what’s around the corner. I have a lovely friend in the same boat. Very early days for her but has recently started dating someone and they both instantly seem on the same page. I have everything crossed on this one. We were on holiday earlier this year, she comes with my family, and she was discussing going it alone and we looked into her options. On return plan was to go see about egg freezing and boom met this guy! I hope you find someone soon but please do open up and talk to your friends it will help you more than you know.

I’m so sorry that you family is being so insensitive to you. I hope you have a good support network that doesn’t include sister and mum ❤️

It's a difficult one, and I genuinely think that the ones who just chat away about whatever they want, with no care of how the recipient might take it, will continue babbling on. I work with a colleague who leaves me speechless on a regular basis! 😂

But, recently I have started to be so aware of what I am saying, to the point I sometimes wonder if I should just stop talking. And I am not insensitive, quite the opposite. One time I was out at lunch with some female colleagues, and they were asking about my children, anyway they said something along the lines of "you were young" and I was going to reply "well, it wasn't planned". But I didn't, I just changed the subject because I don't know what is going on with the other women in the group and how talking about how easily I got pregnant might affect them. It's my problem obviously but we cannot be responsible for every single perceived response that our words could have. It silences us, doesn't it?

Well, it silences me because I have permanent brain fog at the minute and that's hard enough!