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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU - team holiday requests

272 replies

aibuboss · 06/09/2022 06:36

This is playing on my mind and I know I will get honest replies here. NC because it's potentially outing...

I am A in this situation.

A is a senior manager with a small team- B is a manager too (£50k salary to demonstrate seniority) and directly line manages Employee C.

September is normally a busy time for us so holidays not really feasible unless an exceptional circumstance. The team is only 5 people, all quite different jobs, so only ever one on leave at a time unless it's August (quiet month).

I have recently approved a week off for B in September as they told me they needed to travel abroad to sort out some urgent paperwork for an elderly relative. Yesterday C declined a meeting request for the same week telling me that she was on holiday.

C hasn't booked through online holiday booking but did sent B an email that she's approved - it was before her request (via booking system). B didn't tell me this. I was fuming and told them yesterday they have told them they have until lunchtime today to sort it out between them and agree who is taking it else it's unpaid for both. Both have already booked overseas travel.

On reflection I actually think B should be the one to cancel or be unpaid- she should have known the holiday was overlapping from the email she'd approved. C has booked a holiday in good faith. This isn't the first performance issue I have with B and am now thinking about issuing a warning based on ineffective management- she shouldn't have approved C's leave anyway because of workloads (no exceptional circumstances- it's a 2 week all inclusive cheap deal!).

AIBU??

OP posts:
WhereshouldIgo · 06/09/2022 06:42

Yes YABU. It’s a bit of a FU but making them take unpaid leave for the time is ridiculous.
if the issue is having them absent then it doesn’t matter if it’s holiday or unpaid leave.
tell B to make sure it doesn’t happen again - I would give B a verbal warning for not explaining that C was going to be away and tell them it all has to be done in the system to make sure it’s visible.
unless the family thing counts as extreme
circs? Is There more goin lg on that B hasn’t said?

FOJN · 06/09/2022 06:49

Its a mess. C didn't use the correct booking system and B didn't insist she did and then knowing that she has approved leave for another team member B has omitted to mention it when asking you for leave approval.

I'm not sure what you can do if they have both booked flights. B is obviously the bigger problem here both for not insisting that C followed the correct leave booking procedure and then for requesting leave when she knew another person was off.

What would your organisation do if someone was on leave and then another member of staff was ill or needed compassionate leave?

You're going to have to address performance issues with B and then send out a reminder to everyone for the correct procedure to book leave.

WitTanks · 06/09/2022 06:50

YABVU; as you're so senior can't you manage without them for a week? You sound like you're on a total power trip threatening them with unpaid leave

aftonwater · 06/09/2022 06:54

If they both take it as unpaid leave are you then setting a precedent that it’s ok for more than one to be off as long as it’s unpaid leave?

Rufffles · 06/09/2022 06:55

I can see why you're annoyed but the general resourcing in the team doesn't sound very sustainable. If it's that tricky for people to cover each other's work how do you cope when there's unplanned leave (e.g. sickness)? Could you look at doing some cross training?

I do sympathise though. Managing small teams can be very difficult - this is a good example of why.

Christonabike37 · 06/09/2022 06:57

B is entirely responsible. It'd be a written warning and unpaid leave. C gets a verbal warning to use correct procedure but isn't responsible for their being not enough staff working.

You do sound like a bit of a ball buster though.

Also, why do the annoying letter thing when you tell us who you are? It's hard to follow.

wibblewobbleball · 06/09/2022 06:58

Don't see why it makes a difference if the leave is unpaid or not - they'll still be absent. Not a lot you can do about it now though other than issue a reminder that all leave must go through the proper system and it's not ideal to have two people off at once in a busy month, therefore they need to ensure their work is as easy as possible for someone else to pick up while they're away. In reality, the world won't collapse because two people are off. You sound like you've overreacted to be honest.

Mumdiva99 · 06/09/2022 06:59

There are a number of issues here.

Employee C had her leave authorised by her manager and booked a holiday.
You don't think she shouldnhave approved it because it's September.
Is that written in your holiday policy?
(Although you approved her manager having time off.....)

Don't make C suffer - she booked her holiday in good faith. It's not down to her to change it. (I was employee C in similar circumstances once........it's shit when people change the rules).

If C didn't use the proper process to book her holiday remind her of that for next time.

You need to work with B to work out if you can have her out the same time. If not then explain to her as she didn't mark holiday c on the system you agreed to her being off thinking C was working. Now you know she isn't then you can't let her be off too. This is down to B to resolve.

I don't know why you are bringing unpaid into this. Holiday is holiday - if you pay holiday you can't suddenly say you won't pay it.....just because you are annoyed when it's taken.

Nor should you judge your employees choice of holiday '2 weeks all inclusive' - so what if that's what she likes. Maybe she loves that type of holiday. Maybe she works hard for you all year round for it.....and maybe the weather breaks later on in the location she is going hence why she wants it in September.

WitTanks · 06/09/2022 07:05

Incredibly rude of you to judge your employees holiday choices. You've said the employee is on 50k as a stealth boast to let us know you earn more. So presumably the employee going on the 'cheap all inclusive' is on less than person B and you

Overall, power tripping bosses like you are the reason I'm self employed now. You're just in charge of a small team; not the world!

LadyCampanulaTottington · 06/09/2022 07:10

@WitTanks did you actually read the post? Where is the judgement of holiday choices?

B is your problem here OP. C should be reminded of proper procedure but B reprimanded.

I used to work in an environment where every person was needed at certain times so ignore the posters that don’t get that being down a body or even two has a detrimental impact on the rest of the team.

UnicornMumcraft · 06/09/2022 07:12

They’ve messed up, and need to make sure it doesn’t happen again. I’m not sure why you’ve brought in the unpaid leave issue though. If the problem is having them both off work how does it being unpaid help other than to punish them?

ShirleyPhallus · 06/09/2022 07:12

I don’t understand why one has to take unpaid leave given the issue should be resourcing

2 weeks AI is none of your business and £50k salary isn’t relevant either

B would be on a warning and C reminder to use the system

Brefugee · 06/09/2022 07:14

C is U and anyone letting them take holiday after circumventing (and lying about) the booking system.

Wherever i've worked there have been rules about who can be away when, some very restrictive. But the system is open on a FCFS basis, and as soon as you are officially approved, anyone who comes after that is unlucky. Even if they have booked holidays (company don't have to compensate etc)

bodie1890 · 06/09/2022 07:16

I agree you sound like you are on a power trip with the whole unpaid leave thing. Really unpleasant way to manage this.

Aprilx · 06/09/2022 07:16

You are being totally unreasonable and on a power trip with your unpaid leave threats, which achieve nothing in the context of you being apparently concerned about not having enough people in.

I have been a senior manager in the past, with numerous levels below me. I think it is for me to manage the leave of my direct reports and for them to consider the leave requests of their direct reports.

I am also not clear why, as you all have quite different jobs, it means you can’t have more than one person off, that makes no sense to me. If you had similar jobs then yes maybe I can see the issue. Also what would you do if somebody was sick when somebody else was off.

A principle I followed during my years of management was not to make it hard for people to take their leave. Talk of disciplinary processes and unpaid leave just because two people wanted to take leave, asked their line managers and had it agreed is shocking. If I were them, I would go to HR over your behaviour, it isn’t even clear if you have the legal right to cancel agreed leave.

On the matter of not making it hard, I have just taken a very junior job, to see me out until retirement and despite joining in June, I can only take my leave as single days and never a whole week for the rest of the year because of “no two people off at once rules”. I won’t be staying as my leisure time is too important.

NumptiesIncorporated · 06/09/2022 07:17

It's not up to B to make sure you know when your team's holidays are. B would probably have thought you knew that C was off.

How has C had their holidays approved if they aren't in the system? Imo if C hasn't booked her holidays correctly, they should be the one that loses out.

NumptiesIncorporated · 06/09/2022 07:19

Oh - ignore my message. I've just reread it and when you said 'C hasn't booked through online holiday booking but did sent B an email that she's approved' I thought C was telling B that her holidays were approved, not that B has approved C's holidays. That changes things.

KvotheTheBloodless · 06/09/2022 07:20

WitTanks · 06/09/2022 07:05

Incredibly rude of you to judge your employees holiday choices. You've said the employee is on 50k as a stealth boast to let us know you earn more. So presumably the employee going on the 'cheap all inclusive' is on less than person B and you

Overall, power tripping bosses like you are the reason I'm self employed now. You're just in charge of a small team; not the world!

Huh? How is it a power trip to make sure that there's enough resource to do the job? Surely that's one of the most basic managerial duties?!

I think you're projecting your own feelings about 'bosses' onto OP, @WitTanks

babyjellyfish · 06/09/2022 07:20

Can B move her travel to the week after C gets back from holiday so they aren't both off at the same time? Or go sooner if the paperwork is that urgent?

LIZS · 06/09/2022 07:21

You can't insist it is unpaid. Yes they should sort it between them and B was not professional in requesting same period and not making you aware. Did you ask B whether C would cover?

DelphiniumBlue · 06/09/2022 07:21

Sounds like one of them is lying here.
Not sure why you think unpaid holiday is appropriate, unless you have to pay for cover? And even then, you approved B's holiday. Why wasn't C's holiday properly booked?

Againstmachine · 06/09/2022 07:21

So B used proper system and booked holidays and got them approved, however C didn't use proper system.

Why didn't C use proper system.and would B have been declined if C has done it properly.

Also it's the managers job to make sure there is enough people in, B knowing about C's absence is irrelevant.

Seems like the manager has messed up and blaming it on the staff.

Sceptre86 · 06/09/2022 07:23

If C had put their holidays through correctly I assume you would have seen it and not authorised B? I'd go for the verbal warning for B oeing to the seniority and then send an email to the whole team reinforcing holiday policy and how it must be put through correctly, going forward should they not follow the procedure correctly their leave would be subject to cancellation (that's how it works where I am).

NumptiesIncorporated · 06/09/2022 07:23

*Also it's the managers job to make sure there is enough people in, B knowing about C's absence is irrelevant.

Seems like the manager has messed up and blaming it on the staff*

B is C's manager and approved C's holidays. It's slightly oddly worded and I didn't get that to begin with either.

Sceptre86 · 06/09/2022 07:25

@againstmachine you've missed that B directly line manages C