AIBU - team holiday requests

[aibuboss]

This is playing on my mind and I know I will get honest replies here. NC because it's potentially outing...

I am A in this situation.

A is a senior manager with a small team- B is a manager too (£50k salary to demonstrate seniority) and directly line manages Employee C.

September is normally a busy time for us so holidays not really feasible unless an exceptional circumstance. The team is only 5 people, all quite different jobs, so only ever one on leave at a time unless it's August (quiet month).

I have recently approved a week off for B in September as they told me they needed to travel abroad to sort out some urgent paperwork for an elderly relative. Yesterday C declined a meeting request for the same week telling me that she was on holiday.

C hasn't booked through online holiday booking but did sent B an email that she's approved - it was before her request (via booking system). B didn't tell me this. I was fuming and told them yesterday they have told them they have until lunchtime today to sort it out between them and agree who is taking it else it's unpaid for both. Both have already booked overseas travel.

On reflection I actually think B should be the one to cancel or be unpaid- she should have known the holiday was overlapping from the email she'd approved. C has booked a holiday in good faith. This isn't the first performance issue I have with B and am now thinking about issuing a warning based on ineffective management- she shouldn't have approved C's leave anyway because of workloads (no exceptional circumstances- it's a 2 week all inclusive cheap deal!).

AIBU??

As a company you should have adequate leave if someone is off.

What do you do if a couple of people are Sick at the same time.

B isn't coping is she.

C has chanced her arm to book a September holiday most likely knowing B is too weak to say no.

B is also too afraid of you to have insisted it goes through the proper system so has sat on it rather than making sure it has gone into the booking system.

was probably going to claim an error/confusion (I thought it was Oct!) when it all came out. Or make you be the bad guy in saying no to C.

then her family issue has happened and that's made the problem even worse.

I manage a relatively big team and we have a high workload so everyone understands that it's not good to take time off during peak times. However, sometimes things come up and wires get crossed. I would never dream of being 'furious' or punishing both or one of them with unpaid leave.

All that does is create a level of fear and dissatisfaction. It would make for a pretty toxic working environment. Instead I'd explain to both that I wasn't happy but it is what it is and we'll make the best of it. Our team works hard and to some very tight deadlines but we have great team morale and quality output. If anyone was afraid of me being 'furious', I'd be mortified.

Tricky - as you perhaps could also have asked B if anyone else had booked leave before approving. I personally would however give them a ticking off. A formal warning depends if it falls within your disciplinary policy and/or if you have an annual leave policy/guidance about not taking leave at same time or that said manager B had to consider business impact before approving. If you don’t have any policies or guidance then you don’t really have a leg to stand on.

I think you need to put this back into B's court as you've sort of already done.

Yes B's circumstances are justified. But she didn't follow protocol and one of the two of them needs to either give up their AL or take it unpaid. You've given them the option to still go, just not get paid for it.

Make sure this is clarified before the date of no return passes, so you can cancel AL if nothing is sorted between them.

It might be that B has to make a flying visit on Thursday night, get to the solicitors to get POA on the Friday and fly back on the Sunday to start work on the following Monday.

Not ideal but would give you a single day to cover rather than a whole week.

I agree B was at fault here, and you should probably get HR involved. Who booked the leave first (whatever system they used?)
I totally understand your frustration and I don't think you could have anticipated this as you would be expecting B to follow company policy. They haven't, so there should be consequences.

I was in a similar situation a few years ago, but I was C (sort of). I followed procedure and emailed my direct supervisor for permission. She gave it. So I then emailed our main manager to let her know my dates and she documented it. Just before my leave, the main manager realised that my leave would leave us short-er staffed than would be ideal so told me I had to cancel it. I refused (foreign holiday booked) as it was not my mess up. I stood my ground and went on holiday. If they aren't capable of doing their jobs properly then I'm not willing to take the hit for it!

You can cancel B's leave as you can give twice the notice of the duration if it starts on 22nd. Or ask them to review how the remaining team can manage the workload being two down. They have set this situation up and need to resolve it.

Yes, I did read the thread and I understand that you have a booking system. At my workplace (very large organisation) we too have an official booking system for requesting annual leave. However, we also have the shared outlook calendar so that it is visible straight away, until the manager gets chance to approve officially on the booking system. Basically, even if C only requested leave via email, if B had put it on the shared calendar then it would have been visible to you immediately. Poor communication

Wow you sound like a delight!
Managers and their egos

B is the unreasonable one. They aren’t the manager and so aren’t expected to manage this. C also approved it and didn’t put it through the system, presumably because he/she knew it would then stop you approve their leave.
I’d probably let them both go (because I’m a soft touch) but I would give a warning to B about both following procedure and also the element of not being upfront which compounds it.

B is at fault here. She approved holiday for C using an incorrect procedure (email not the booking system), presumably failed to ensure that C knew how to book correctly in future, then well aware of the issue it would cause if both she and C were off at the same time, booked leave in the correct way and you approved it assuming no one else was off. She knew what she was doing. She is a crap manager and has tried to pull a fast one on you, hoping you'll scapegoat C. She is not a team player and should receive a warning. I'd leave C out of it beyond ensuring that C knows how to book correctly in future. In the disciplinary meeting make sure B knows her responsibilities to those she manages and to her own manager. And be wary of her, she's really dropped you in it.
Aa for the issue, I think you'll have to let both be off at the same time on this occasion, don't mess about with pay as that leaves you open to criticism from those higher up than you.

That should say B also approved it!

You’ve not handled this brilliantly OP, and you’ve placed C in a position of potential conflict with B. B will likely ‘win’ whereas this is actually your issue to resolve.

You need to talk to them both and apologise for the ridiculous unpaid comment.

C gets the holiday. They booked first, in good faith. B chooses unpaid or rearrange.

C didn’t follow procedure but got approval, a reminder of holiday blackouts and procedure is all that’s needed for them. An AI sounds bloody fab to me.
B needs to know procedure and that it was exceptional leave. You will be considering their chain of command, but perhaps with stress, it was not followed correctly. Maybe an informal meeting?
Unpaid leave is pointless, they will still be entitled to paid leave and you’ll have to manage that. The salaries and holiday info is irrelevant, aside from presumably being a stealth boast you’re on more than 50k🙄
You sound like you could benefit from some people management training.

I think you need kemal advice before doing anything. Maybe contact ACAS. I

Just an FYI.
For person B I don't think OP ever stated it was her DM she was visiting, so it could well be a more distant relative, nor do I think did OP state that the relative was I'll, only elderly.

If you're considering things like giving a warning or making leave unpaid you need to make sure that you are covered legally and correct processes are followed. You have come to the wrong place for advice on this. You need someone who can give you facts rather than opinions.

How does unpaid leave resolve the situation that you have either in for the week?

We have a similar set up where I work re holidays. It's been made very clear that any holiday not booked through the official channel isn't "approved" regardless of emails etc unless and until it has been put through the system. Presuming similar has been communicated where then I don't think you're being unreasonable re unpaid leave for both particularly if C is also aware of the position re leave in September. I'm assuming C is and that the email to B was to feel out whether leave would approved?

As for B, I agree with your stance.

I absolutely hate 'sort it out between you '. My boss does this and it means pushiest person wins even when at fault.

You should look at the timeline, ascertain what happened with both and then make a decision

B's leave has to be upheld - i get that you are having performance issues in general with them, but you need to think long term here. B could attribute the performance issues down to whats going on in her home life, and as this leave is a direct result of that,messing with it just wouldnt look good on you in any kind of performance managememt/dismissal case. I understand that they approved it without it going through the official system, but (unless you've said it and i've missed it) C isnt new, she's followed the proper process before and is an adult responsible for booking her leave correctly. Its her ultimately at fault but as B has mistakenly approved it you cant really bollock her, however you can remind her of correct process. There's no need to 'punish' anyone. If they were out sick you'd be paying sick pay AND for a contractor, and as you've said when C is out 2 other team members share the work so thats what will have to happen as normal, then you pay for the cover for B as you would have been doing anyway.
(Apologies if i've missed something in the setup!) Its rubbish but it is what it is.

YANBU to be annoyed, but threatening me with unpaid leave would make me look for another job.

Really agree with this.

OP, that is a really unprofessional response from you.

B is C's manager and this puts C in a very difficult position.

I would advise C to go to HR to complain you both.

Neither you nor B come out of this well at all.

possible for B to work remotely at reduced hours while they're out? Doesn't sound like a holiday so they may have capacity between meetings etc with their family/lawyers.