AIBU - team holiday requests

[aibuboss]

This is playing on my mind and I know I will get honest replies here. NC because it's potentially outing...

I am A in this situation.

A is a senior manager with a small team- B is a manager too (£50k salary to demonstrate seniority) and directly line manages Employee C.

September is normally a busy time for us so holidays not really feasible unless an exceptional circumstance. The team is only 5 people, all quite different jobs, so only ever one on leave at a time unless it's August (quiet month).

I have recently approved a week off for B in September as they told me they needed to travel abroad to sort out some urgent paperwork for an elderly relative. Yesterday C declined a meeting request for the same week telling me that she was on holiday.

C hasn't booked through online holiday booking but did sent B an email that she's approved - it was before her request (via booking system). B didn't tell me this. I was fuming and told them yesterday they have told them they have until lunchtime today to sort it out between them and agree who is taking it else it's unpaid for both. Both have already booked overseas travel.

On reflection I actually think B should be the one to cancel or be unpaid- she should have known the holiday was overlapping from the email she'd approved. C has booked a holiday in good faith. This isn't the first performance issue I have with B and am now thinking about issuing a warning based on ineffective management- she shouldn't have approved C's leave anyway because of workloads (no exceptional circumstances- it's a 2 week all inclusive cheap deal!).

AIBU??

my team managed for the last week with 3 people down (usually a team of 6).

why don’t you speak to those staff who will be there and see if there’s any extra capacity for someone to take on B and Cs work whilst they are away for a week?

what do you do when 2 are off sick at the same time? Surely you’ve come across this before, especially in the last 2 years when people were required to self isolate?

Have you aked B how they are planning to sort this? As a manager, put the responsibility on them to deal with their/ their staff issue, make it clear you arent sorting the mess they're planning on leaving. Put a formal note on their file about not following company procedure for other employees.

C is neither here nor there. She asked for hols and was granted it.
B should have known (maybe did not remember the email and just looked at the system. I would speak to B and ask her to rearrange if possible. If not, and if its the only mistake she has made, I don't think not paying her is appropriate. She will still have the paid leave to take before year end. Sounds like she is in a stressful place at the moment.

Unpaid is just a petty punishment and not really fair at all. If you can handle them being off unpaid you can handle them being off on annual leave.
Is it a clear company policy that there is no annual leave allowed in September? If 2 out of 5 people have requested time in Sept it doesn’t seem like they are clear on this.

C needs to be told that holidays will only be approved is going through the official booking process.

B needs to be pulled up for for approving c holidays and circumnavigating the booking system. It seems a deliberate thing on their part as they would have known that their own leave would be revised if you were aware that c already was off at the same time.

Don't see the point in making them take unpaid leave - doesn't resolve the issue of now having 2 staff members off at a time where no holidays are usually approved.

Yabu.
Why should they be unpaid?

Just be clear that in future all holidays have to be approved in the appropriate way otherwise they will not be approved

You can't insist on unpaid leave, that's ridiculous. Why does C book leave unofficially? Did you know that happens? If so, you need to put your foot down on that.

What happens if some stuff doesn’t get done that week. It’s unlikely to be the end of the world.

Unpaid leave will get you into issues with your HR and the law. You should consult your HR before any action, it’s not up to a manager at any level to decide what action to take in case of double-booking of leave at busy times, it will be company or organisation policy.

People are entitled to statutory paid leave and if you force unpaid leave on them, then there’s also the impact on how they will use up their leave, if the leave year runs the calendar year.

Two people off for a week at a busy time might be difficult, but life happens - people have emergencies, people make mistakes.

You sound both very under-resourced and over-specialised if you can’t muck in together, or cross-train. And if you can get in agency cover - then the roles aren’t as specialised as you think and you need to think about whether you need more staff. You are also over-hierarchical if you have a two-tier management structure for such a small team and you don’t have sufficient contact for it to have come to light only now.

I wouldn’t performance manage B for something their staff did incorrectly. That is an oversight. Performance management is about consistent issues, whether over quality or quantity of work, attitude or interpersonal conflict. And it’s not up to you to discipline C if B is their manager. I’d remind staff that proper procedure must be followed, that the impact is cover has to be brought in, and take this as an opportunity to review staffing levels to see how you can manage the September busy-ness, e.g. by hiring contract staff for the duration to help out. At your pay grade this is an opportunity, not a threat. You know it’s cyclical, you can manage temporary extra hands if you’re considering bringing in agency staff who bring value during a week without needing to be trained up.

How you handle this may well determine whether you’re a team of five or a team of three going forward.

YABU, mistakes happen, people are human. It sounds like you are busy so it could be that B forgot about approving Cs leave request though should have followed the correct procedure. I’d accept that it is what it is but ensure they are aware that it mustn’t happen again. I certainly wouldn’t be saying it’s unpaid, that’s one way to fracture your working relationships and it is totally disproportionate. I’d also double check that everyone is aware of the process and if this is not followed in future their request will be invalid. I don’t think there is a need for warnings, no one likes a manager who throws their weight around. You’ll always have a better relationship with your staff if you exercise discretion and compromise if possible and they’re more likely to try and move mountains for you in their work. You’re human op, there may be a time when you fuck up too and need others to give you the benefit of the doubt…

Is it in the contract of employment that holidays cannot be granted in the months of September and April unless for exceptional circumstances?

If it doesn’t state anything like that and you are only operating off a local understanding don’t be surprised if B and C seek counsel and take it to the labour court.

Even though B is more at fault here, you have just said their mother is unwell and they have to go to secure POA over her? That’s an extremely difficult and stressful situation to be in already. It is possible they didn’t think of the implications in the situation because they are under enormous pressure.

To be honest the whole set up sounds absolutely unsustainable. It’s a small team so surely cross training can be a thing?

I work within a small team myself and we are all trained up on and have procedure manuals for each others most important work. That way if people are out on leave or suddenly sick we can pick up the slack fairly easily without too much hassle to our own work loads.

Accidents happen and this was an error that I assume hasn’t happened before? There is ways of going about it without coming across like Ebenezer Scrooge.

All those people saying about sickness, that's completely not the same. This is 2 people from a team of 5 taking holiday that the team has been told no because of business needs. What if another member of staff becomes ill while they're away? One of those others might have had the opportunity to do something, but refused as they know it's against company policy. How do they now feel, when the others come back rested at the end of a busy period where they've had to cover their work? And next year, when somebody else wants this time off, they're going to use the argument that b/c was allowed, why not them?

It sounds like Bs role is mainly to funnel the work to the correct person and that the business will be ok for the week she is there but not C.

With this in mind can people work remotely? Could the compromise be that B directs and manages the workload by logging in a couple of times a day and the leave taken is adjusted accordingly?

I'm struggling to think of roles so specialised that nobody else can do them, but a temp can come in at short notice to pick up. Another action going forward would be more cross training amongst the team to avoid situations like this.

I've had two holiday situations in the past when I was a Line Manager and I regret to say in both scenarios- with the benefit of hindsight- I overreacted. It's tempting to do so, but in the short term I'd laser down and focus on what do we need to deliver service during this week when B&C are gone, and how can we make this happen.

I think YABU

B is very much at fault for failing to manage C and failing to tell you how that her trip clashed with B.

Look into how you can get cover and how you can prevent this happening again.

Yeah, this.

Your workplace really can't function for five days on reduced staff? What if two people are genuinely ill at the same time?

Company profits reduce. Customer complaints. Less repeat business.

Think, £20million construction project and no project management (senior PM and PM) for a week. It's the closest comparison without outing the actual job roles.

YABVU. You’re certainly not a manager I would want to work for and are punishing them like children.

It all sounds like a genuine mistake. Yes B cocked up by not asking C to put it in the system but B’s parent is now unwell so it’s very possible she forgot about C. Show some compassion rather than being so bullish.

Aren't you at fault for not looking to see who else was on holiday before agreeing to Bs request? Agree with those who say ot shouldn't be unpaid , that's just being vindictive on your part.

So by making em take unpaid leave, they have more annual leave to take, meaning even less hours at work?

Your logic is very flawed!

If you give it unpaid then they just have more holiday to use later in the year meaning they are off again
surely be better to just get the leave over with

have a chat ensure it won’t happen again and move on

Time to sort out the system as it's not working properly. And if you are the senior manager then that's your responsibility.

Did you read the post?

Sorry not the point of your thread, but: "September is normally a busy time for us so holidays not really feasible unless an exceptional circumstance"
This sucks. As someone without kids I only ever holiday in September!!

Think, £20million construction project and no project management (senior PM and PM) for a week. It's the closest comparison without outing the actual job roles

If it’s such a high value project then I’m sure you can afford cover rather than punishing your employees. That is not how to manage.

C's holiday wasn't booked officially, it wasn't in there for her to see.

Really as it hasn't been booked officially, it could still be rejected. Which is on b for not ensuring it was done right.