AIBU - team holiday requests

[aibuboss]

This is playing on my mind and I know I will get honest replies here. NC because it's potentially outing...

I am A in this situation.

A is a senior manager with a small team- B is a manager too (£50k salary to demonstrate seniority) and directly line manages Employee C.

September is normally a busy time for us so holidays not really feasible unless an exceptional circumstance. The team is only 5 people, all quite different jobs, so only ever one on leave at a time unless it's August (quiet month).

I have recently approved a week off for B in September as they told me they needed to travel abroad to sort out some urgent paperwork for an elderly relative. Yesterday C declined a meeting request for the same week telling me that she was on holiday.

C hasn't booked through online holiday booking but did sent B an email that she's approved - it was before her request (via booking system). B didn't tell me this. I was fuming and told them yesterday they have told them they have until lunchtime today to sort it out between them and agree who is taking it else it's unpaid for both. Both have already booked overseas travel.

On reflection I actually think B should be the one to cancel or be unpaid- she should have known the holiday was overlapping from the email she'd approved. C has booked a holiday in good faith. This isn't the first performance issue I have with B and am now thinking about issuing a warning based on ineffective management- she shouldn't have approved C's leave anyway because of workloads (no exceptional circumstances- it's a 2 week all inclusive cheap deal!).

AIBU??

I hate all this pointing fingers having to have someone accountable for being at fault. Can’t it just be noted that a mistake has been made but we’re all human and that happens. No good ever comes from being a blamer.

Hold on just re read your bit about needing two temps to do the work of one with training time etc - so are these temps professionally qualified in whatever you do and when you say 'training' you just mean, bring them up to speed for the week? So as well as not being time allowed off in september and april, is B never allowed to have leave at the same time as anyone she manages?

The holiday thing aside, i think this shows you need to better manage your team in being able to cover each others jobs. That's what most businesses do, that's part of working in a team, someone is off, the rest of the team pick up the slack for a week or two.

What would you do if someone had a serious accident or emergency and had to be off work at short notice for a long period of time? You say you get temps in but having someone in and trained up quick enough or able to take on the role fully without having to ask lots of questions or need direction from managers seems unlikely.

Let them both have the time of as holiday making it clear to all this is a one off and not to be repeated. And maybe offer your remaining staff a bonus or incentive to cover the workload (got to be cheaper then temps).

While yes B is technically more at fault I don't agree with everyone thinking C is so innocent just because they are in a position of less responsibility. To me sounds like C knows they aren't supposed to have holiday in September which is why they deliberately haven't used the booking system.

B has clearly fucked up but bear in mind they are in the midst of some pretty distressing personal circumstances- as other pps have said they could have been warranted in taking compassionate leave for something like this but they have tried to do it by the book. If they are anything like the middle managers I know they have a billion emails a day - they might have agreed Cs request then when time came to book it off themselves looked at online system, saw nobody was booked off and either forgotten about C completely or thought they hadn't actually booked their holiday in the end.

Basically nobody, including you (it is not reasonable to exoect them to sort it out amongst themselves) in the company has covered themselves in glory here but I think everyone has a bit of culpability. It also depends what your formal processes are - if you have policies that specifically state leave is not allowed in September and leave needs to be approved on the system then C hasn't had leave approved l.

You have come to the wrong place for advice on this.

LOL. That's true. AIBU isn't really the best place for advice about managing people without falling foul of employment law.

If you have a friend, D, and you want advice on how to go no contact with D, and strategies for not answering the door, then AIBU is what you need.

So C has asked their direct report about holiday. B approved it. It might not have followed the procedure but it was approved. Not C's fault.

Given the holiday situation I think B has been a little sneaky booking holiday after C, hoping that you had not spotted that C was off. But you are B's line manager and you approved it. And premeditation will be impossible to prove. I'm not an employment law specialist but I would imagine that you would not have a leg to stand on if you tried this unpaid nonsense or tried to cancel the agreed holiday. Unscrupulous employers try this kind of thing all the time because people either don't know their rights, or are unwilling to invoke them through fear of upsetting the apple cart.

Unfortunately, you, and the company will have to take the hit here, unless you want to ignore law and decency and risk grievance procedures, or even tribunals. If these go against you and /or the company, it will be your ass on the line.

I also see some pretty shocking working practices here. Blanket no holidays for 17% of the year is unfair. If you exclude bank holidays you are essentially asking a team of 5 or more to not duplicate holidays within 40 weeks. No one will get a fair crack. Furthermore, if a team cannot operate with reduced numbers, it is the company that is under-resourcing the team. A permanent skeleton staff situation that restricts employees ability to take holiday when they like (within reason) is pretty shocking.

The only answer here is to meet with B to lay out your concerns over how their holiday booking may appear, and ensure B and the remaining team are aware of the holiday booking procedure and how requests are considered. But based on the OP, this company and you as a manager, seem very, very amateurish.

B's at fault for approving Cs request for holidays to be taken during a busy month where they aren't usually permitted.

C should've used booking system after confirms with B that they too hols during what would usually be a blackout month.

B not putting it on system makes no difference really as Bs request for leave is exceptional circumstances so whether they asked for it now, or a week before, would you have to approve it regardless of whether other people are off?

Can any aspects of Bs job be done from holiday and could an option be limiting their holiday pay and paying them for hours worked while away?

For me, it's not your job to 'punish' them, it's your job to lead them.

When you approved exceptional leave for B, this should have been preceeded by a conversation about it's exceptional nature and a question about how the week will be covered - including a check that everyone else is expected to be in. In my experience, just because leave isn't booked is not a good enough check: there are all sorts of reasons where further absence might be a heightened risk.

e.g. C has an unwell relative or is expecting to move house etc. All kinds of things that mean there might be an increased chance of them needing time out.

If B is a manager then show them how to manage. Have a grown up conversation with them about how C is also off at the same time, the challenges this brings, and push them to help think of ways to mitigate the risk. Then be clear that next time you approve leave, you'll be asking them to first confirm no one else is off, or likely to be.

Yep, to force unpaid leave you need to have a procedure in place. Realistically this time you'll need to suck up the cost but make sure there are robust procedure for putting leave through the system with consequences if that's not done. Out of interest, if B had been transparent and said C is already on leave but I have a family issue I need leave for, what would you have done?

Do you even have the legal right to force them to take unpaid leave?

If there is no leave in September then C's leave needs to be cancelled. It circumvented rules so mistakes were made It was a mistake and HR should speak to B about their management style.

B's emergency leave stands.

But C's manager approved it. You can't retrospectively unapprove it further down the line due to a cock up.

Of course they can

Tbh it would be nice to let them take unpaid leave

B's leave gets rescinded unless they can come up with a plan to manage that you're happy with. No unpaid leave as you're creating a new policy on the fly that may mean similar situations in the future. C should have put through tool but as their manager approved it's manager's responsibility that leave has been approved that is not following proper procedure for recording time away. B should have known that you could not be aware of leave on the team and that you therefore didn't have all the relevant facts to approve their leave. For other posters who have commented, it's normal in many jobs to have times no leave can be taken, would be normal in Finance e.g. quarter end, year end etc. and everyone would understand and be aware that it's the terms of the job. There can be times when everyone is working to a hard deadline and multiple people being away just means way more work for everyone else, risk of missing the deadline etc. Not all jobs can have people easily trained up to step in as a temp resource. Teams would try to manage if there was unexpected leave but it would go down badly if it was planned or avoidable. Serious feedback for B here as a manager on the team who should have known better.

I work in finance and have done for the last 15 years. Yes, some of the firms I work for restrict holiday in the second half of March and the first week or so in April as we reach tax year end, but there blanket ban, but a more cautious management. Plus this represents about 5-7% of the year, not nearly 17%.

You can't go round rescinding approved holidays.

I would cancel both sets of leave (assuming you are within the timescales for C).

I would cancel C because of the no leave in September rule, and because they didn't follow the correct booking procedure.

I would cancel B because they didn't follow the no leave in Sept and no more than 1 person off rules and by not following procedure and putting Cs leave on the system caused additional problems. (I would assume this was deliberate but it doesn't matter at this point).

I would speak to HR about what is possible re warnings/disciplinary. But then I would come down quite harsh on people mucking about like this. They both knew they were not following rules and trying it on!

Both have had holidays approved although they can be cancelled by the employer given the same amount of notice as the time off eg 2 weeks leave needs 2 weeks notice. You can't decide its unpaid leave and you can't issue a warning without due process.

I have recently approved a week off for B in September as they told me they needed to travel abroad to sort out some urgent paperwork for an elderly relative

That's hardly annual leave for holiday is it? I don't think either B or C should face any sort of repercussions. B has caring responsibilities - it would be very wrong to give them a verbal warning - and you should accommodate that. If you don't have enough staff to cover leave and sickness, that's on the overall manager, not the employees.

I think it’s worth remembering that a lot of advice on this thread is from people who have no management or legal experience!

It's strange that C applied for leave in non-exceptional circumstances during September if everybody know that's a busy month where nobody gets leave. Also strange that B approved it.
Anyway, it's B's fault as she approved C's leave knowing she was already off. Can she bring her leave forward or back a couple of weeks?

It’s interesting reading so many comments about how mean you are OP! So many people have no realistic idea of how a business works and how you can’t have loads of spare people on stand by for cover. You are not mean by enforcing rules that are there for good reasons!

I would talk to C and explain that their holiday should not have been approved but really they shouldn’t have requested given their contract/staff handbook whatever and get them to check cancellation terms. Sometimes refunds are available. I would also gently remind them to consider checking awareness of procedures such as holiday booking system. Ideally you don’t want people hiding behind ‘my manager said’ when they know how it should be done. If they can cancel with minimal loss then they should. If not explain why this will not happen again and apologise to other staff.

And B needs a formal meeting and probably a warning given you already have performance issues with her. It is all her fault and while she may be stressed that isn’t an excuse for messing up the team so badly. Assuming she has to go in September then agree unpaid leave so you can partially recoup the cover costs.

Sounds like the OP could do with some management training too. You see these people promoted beyond their abilities that treat a management role like being a Roman dictator. A good manager leads, they don't make random dictates on a whim.

I am inclined to say B having made a mistake should be the one to change. Urgent is today or tomorrow maybe, not as described. I expect the 'urgent' issue abroad could be sorted out in early October.

Disciplinary seems harsh if no previous performance issues such as this.

I think you are making a massive deal out of a week and not looking at the bigger picture. Do you really think you are going to foster trust and passion for their work in your team by acting like this? It’s been a mistake, make it clear it shouldn’t happen again and move on. No one is so important that the world stops going round, honestly if you’ve managed staffing through COVID you can manage this without making your staff hate you. If I had a boss that acted like this I’d look for another job and I think if this causes you such a meltdown then you don’t want to be recruiting….

YABU and this post doesn’t make you sound like a very caring boss.

Regardless of your personal feelings about B’s performance they’re taking time because they need to get POA for an elderly relative who I assume is quite poorly. It sounds like they have some sort of caring responsibility for this person and like they’re having quite a stressful time in their personal life. What support have you offered them beyond approving their emergency leave? Have you considered their performance may be impacted by this added stress leading to mistakes like this? If they cancel their trip an elderly person will be left with no one able to make decisions for them, is your business really more important than that?

It also feels unfair to expect C to be part of the solution and potentially sacrifice the holiday they paid for and booked in good faith. B is their manager so there’s an imbalance of power in their relationship which creates pressure on C when they’re deciding and they may feel guilty about B’s difficult family situation. C is also clearly not on £50k, the cost of a cheap package holiday is still a lot to lose for most people.

Personally I’d let them both take their leave and then reiterate clearly for the whole team what the leave policy is. As the senior manager you need to think about how to build better resilience into this team; it’s not sustainable having such a small number of people able to do tasks that seem to be essential for the business to run. What if someone left and someone else had an emergency and couldn’t work? More widely, has your organisation got a policy about support for people with caring responsibilities and, if not, do you need one?