AIBU - team holiday requests

[aibuboss]

This is playing on my mind and I know I will get honest replies here. NC because it's potentially outing...

I am A in this situation.

A is a senior manager with a small team- B is a manager too (£50k salary to demonstrate seniority) and directly line manages Employee C.

September is normally a busy time for us so holidays not really feasible unless an exceptional circumstance. The team is only 5 people, all quite different jobs, so only ever one on leave at a time unless it's August (quiet month).

I have recently approved a week off for B in September as they told me they needed to travel abroad to sort out some urgent paperwork for an elderly relative. Yesterday C declined a meeting request for the same week telling me that she was on holiday.

C hasn't booked through online holiday booking but did sent B an email that she's approved - it was before her request (via booking system). B didn't tell me this. I was fuming and told them yesterday they have told them they have until lunchtime today to sort it out between them and agree who is taking it else it's unpaid for both. Both have already booked overseas travel.

On reflection I actually think B should be the one to cancel or be unpaid- she should have known the holiday was overlapping from the email she'd approved. C has booked a holiday in good faith. This isn't the first performance issue I have with B and am now thinking about issuing a warning based on ineffective management- she shouldn't have approved C's leave anyway because of workloads (no exceptional circumstances- it's a 2 week all inclusive cheap deal!).

AIBU??

If you read her post she did say only time more than 1 person can be off is August as they are not busy and all have different roles/jobs 🙄

It's all B's fault.

You need to performance manage B, either you haven't set out the expectatiosn clearly, in which case you are at fault, or you have, in which case B is at fault. C is not at fault, they asked and their manager should have managed them properly.

Why give unpaid leave? That just means they will be off for additional time. Also I think that would make you a total cunt of a manager who punishes instead of doing their own job (managing) properly.

You sound like a bit of a nightmare manager.

There are loads of jobs like this, where everyone knows holiday won’t be approved at certain times of year. And it can be literally impossible to cover in a small team - for example in a finance role there could be a separation of tasks to avoid fraud or to manage banking systems, or in a technical role some skills may belong only to one or two people in a team who cannot therefore be off at the same time.

I think it’s ok to show some frustration but it’s excessive to be fuming. This isn’t a healthy management style. You need to demonstrate through discussion why B’s decisions have created a problem and engage B to figure out how to solve the problem B created. That’s how you develop good managers. Getting shouty then fixing the problem yourself in an aggressive way only teaches B to be afraid of taking a wrong decision in future, and will cause B to become dithery.

What did B say when you put them on the spot and asked for their detailed plan to cover the vacation? Maybe B can think of a way through it . Maybe not, but B should feel the pain of thinking through how to solve the issue.

B is completely at fault, and sounds like a weak manager who wants to be liked. But… Your job is to ensure B has the understanding to assess whether the vacation should be approved, and the strength to say no in a reasonable way to B’s staff when needed.

Also... worth reflecting if you are known for being a harsh or volatile manager, maybe B is playing Good Cop to your Bad Cop?

Tell B they need to issue a memo to the team, cc’d to you, noting a mistake occurred with the holiday bookings in September and B wants to clarify that NO holiday is able to be approved in September or April without exceptional cause and ALL holiday must be requested via the holiday booking system or is otherwise invalid.

if B is only going away to sort out a POA I would insist either:

• the trip is delayed or accelerated by half a week to mitigate the impact of the holiday clash, and B could take a laptop and work remotely, making up time in the weekend, evenings and/or working half days in the daytime to keep on top of work and emails. The hours worked whilst away would then be logged at normal rate (not out of hours) and added back to B’s holiday balance.
• offer paid overtime to the other staff before going to the effort of getting a temp
• B delays their trip by one week

YABU to ask them to sort it between themselves or both have unpaid leave

It's totally unfair on C who let's face it, will not be able to 'fight' their manager for holiday

This is 100% Bs problem

C should have their holiday approved and be reminded of the process for booking leave (documented warning so if it happens again there is follow up)

B should have her leave cancelled

Pretty simple

You are sounding horrid, Bs parent is unwell and if Cs booking had been done properly I'd still have let B go, its called being a decent manager

What a silly comment

No one hires cover for a couple of weeks ffs

@nutellachurro OP said it has to be unpaid because she needs to get cover in which will cost the business.

My point is surely the business can afford that cost without punishing the employees…

RTFT maybe?

God I'd hate to work in a company like this

Sounds like poor communication between everyone re leave. I think you need to keep an annual leave calender on Outlook (or whatever email you use at work) or put a calendar in the office for all to see, with who has annual leave each week. You could've then seen that C was already on leave so could've declined B's request. Sounds like you will have to just honour both annual leaves now, try to manage without them and learn from this.

I've worked in teams/companies like this before and in my opinion it's just not a very effective team/company, If everything goes to shit because one person took the annual leave that they're entitled to, or became sick, then it's not effective. Not my fault if a company is understaffed

If you’re going to insist in managing in this way, have you actually checked whether you cancel their annual leave by forcing them to go unpaid?

You need to give them in advance by twice the period they’re off plus one day.

Performance manage B.
It appears very obvious.

I also think it's unfair to compare both reasons for A/L, seeing C's reason for leave as less important when both are entitled to have annual leave. It's not any of A's business what the annual leave is for.

I agree C not really at fault here and asking them to sort it out together when there is a power imbalance is unfair.

B sounds entirely at fault, they approved non-exceptional holiday for their team in September, didn't make sure it was the system and then asked for the same time off themselves. Either duplicitous or poor management.

I would hold B accountable in this one. She submitted a leave request, knowing the policy on multiple people taking leave, while withholding information that would have given her a less favourable outcome. That to me suggests a lack of integrity, at the very least she should have come to you and said "I know this is against policy but my personal circumstances mean that I am going to have to request holiday even though I have already approved it for C". It would be very unfair that C gets more penalised for her failure to use the proper system than B does for not telling the truth.

C did not use the correct system so actually does not have approved holidays
B should not have 'approved' the holidays when B's email request came through. as a line manager they should have instead on the correct procedure been used. Also should not have approved the request as they were also off on AL.

If September is a busy time which AL is not normally allowed did C use email (rather than the booking system) to try and avoid getting it rejected? Has C used the booking system in the past for previous requests?

Does the booking system allow for a review of when everyone is off to help manage the AL requests.

B is at fault here - can they adjust their holidays?

Read the thread. C's request was simply on a email trail. We have a comprehensive booking system that is very easy to use and transparent to see who else is off- it just wasn't used.

Yes, leave request starts 22nd.

The email thing is a red herring unless it meant that you checked to see if anyone was off before approving b. Sometimes my team sound me out about leave before they book it in the system, just to check its ok to book.

b should have said I need this time off but slight snag boss, someone else is also off so I propose x,y z to mitigate the risk. The written warning suggestion seems a bit nuclear though. Is the reason she wasn’t honest about someone else being on holiday connected to your management style ie are you a bit harsh?

and as others have said, this family emergency is a bit like being ill so an unexpected emergency that you wouldn’t have been able to predict.

Bottom line is the world won’t end will it! You will cope.

Could there be a chance they are going on holiday together? They may have been trying to pull a fast one to sneak both of their annual leave requests through.

I can understand your frustration. Keep C out of this, they were just following their manager's word. Formally remind them of holiday booking procedure and stress to the whole team that if the proper procedure isn't followed then holidays won't always be authorised. Make sure your holiday procedure is rock solid in staff contracts.
If you really can't manage then take this to HR, as B needs to rearrange their holiday. You need to tread carefully though. If they have family stuff to sort out they might be going through a difficult time. Trying to juggle a senior manager's sick leave through stress will be a lot harder than juggling temporary staff shortages for a week.

YABU

threatening them with unpaid leave?! I'd not be spoken to as you did your staff that's for sure! Maybe look into your staffing there should be very basic cover able to be provided by each in the team if someone is off so it's not so much trouble in two are off at the same time.

C shouldn’t be in trouble and her holiday should be paid. She asked her manager for holiday and it was approved. At most she should be sent an email just reminding her it needs to go through the booking system once approved so everyone can see. That’s a minor issue and no more then a email or verbal confirmation should be warranted.

B requested the holiday knowing she already had C off. She should have to take it unpaid or the holiday will have to be postponed til after C returns.

This is Bs fault and if I was C and you were getting all billy big balls saying I have to take it unpaid after having it approved by my manager I wouldn’t be happy.

Wow to those people saying to get a manual calendar or put it on an email calendar system! The OP clearly states several times that there is a process where the holiday dates are approved and then visible for her to see. Unfortunately, C did not follow this process, B did not insist that they did, and therefore the dates did not appear on the system, hence B being allowed time off at the same time. It is entirely possible that B had actually forgotten that C had been given those dates. For the sake of them coming back to work after their leave, I would suck it up and not do any warnings or unpaid leave. But I WOULD get them into your office at the same time, and explain clearly that because of their joint actions, YOU have been left with the headache of sorting it out, and how do they suggest resolving the issue with lack of staff. Then they will maybe understand better why the processes should be followed.