AIBU - team holiday requests

[aibuboss]

This is playing on my mind and I know I will get honest replies here. NC because it's potentially outing...

I am A in this situation.

A is a senior manager with a small team- B is a manager too (£50k salary to demonstrate seniority) and directly line manages Employee C.

September is normally a busy time for us so holidays not really feasible unless an exceptional circumstance. The team is only 5 people, all quite different jobs, so only ever one on leave at a time unless it's August (quiet month).

I have recently approved a week off for B in September as they told me they needed to travel abroad to sort out some urgent paperwork for an elderly relative. Yesterday C declined a meeting request for the same week telling me that she was on holiday.

C hasn't booked through online holiday booking but did sent B an email that she's approved - it was before her request (via booking system). B didn't tell me this. I was fuming and told them yesterday they have told them they have until lunchtime today to sort it out between them and agree who is taking it else it's unpaid for both. Both have already booked overseas travel.

On reflection I actually think B should be the one to cancel or be unpaid- she should have known the holiday was overlapping from the email she'd approved. C has booked a holiday in good faith. This isn't the first performance issue I have with B and am now thinking about issuing a warning based on ineffective management- she shouldn't have approved C's leave anyway because of workloads (no exceptional circumstances- it's a 2 week all inclusive cheap deal!).

AIBU??

So it's one week when they are both out ?

How badly will this impact the service ?

It seems very draconian to demand that one of them cancels their break. I think you can bring it up to B as a performance issue - as a manager she should have booked her holidays properly and made sure staff were aware.

Also as you are the one overall in charge, you make the unpopular decisions not the others. So if you think it's B who messed up then you own it and tell B to cancel- if that week is genuinely going to cripple the company.

Or you ride with it on the understanding that mess ups happen some time and you and B ensure there is a fool proof holiday tracking system in the future.

I agree with most PPs, It's a mistake, it's not ideal and it's created an issue. Maybe you can implement a better process moving forwards. It seems you're not keen on B and wanting rid and this is more "evidence" of not being up to the job. Agree telling us B's salary is a stealth boast: you surely earn enough to be at a sufficiently high level to be able to manage this yourself. Unpaid leave is harsh and likely to cause resentment and then probably leaving, and that doesn't sound great either, if you all have such individual roles.

C - verbal reminder to book holiday correctly.

B warning about not recording C holiday and not informing you when booking theirs.

Unpaid Holiday - suggests that the business can indeed manage but you want to punish someone. If the business can manage then B needs to have holiday request cancelled. If you can manage just let them go. Issue warnings and leave it at that.

Happy staff is more important. B has a potentially big family issue. Let them deal with it and they will return ready to work. Add to the drama and it could backfire.

Just to pick up why unpaid- I will need to get cover in for them which will cost.

I can't do their jobs and mine- we all do quite different things. It's not a case of doing without them for a week and muddling through.

B line manages the team below. I only line manage B. When I approved B's leave for exceptional reasons there was no other holiday booked.

Also not judging AI - I love an all inclusive but it's not exceptional circumstances it's just a cheap deal hence those dates being requested. B's request is exceptional- her parent is unwell and they have to go abroad to seek POA.

Unpaid leave would be pointless and punishment, pure and simple. Like detention in school. If you can afford for one or both to be on unpaid leave you can afford for them to be on paid leave.

You can’t just “issue a written warning”. You need to follow the proper performance management process.

You need to work with both to put a plan in place for the days their leave overlaps. You need to investigate why B agreed to C’s leave if they knew they would be away themselves and implement performance management if necessary. And you need to reflect on how you got to this level of seniority without knowing this already.

Yes B is entirely at fault here. C hasn't done anything wrong.
It's totally crap for B to tell C they have to "sort it out between them" - as B is C's line manager the buck stops there. B should never have approved C's holiday but given that they have then it's up to B to resolve it - if the company can't reasonably function with only 3 staff then B should either cancel their own plans or should financially compensate C from B's own pocket for C having to cancel theirs.

Just to pick up why unpaid- I will need to get cover in for them which will cost.

But if it's unpaid they will still have their holidays to take later on in the year.

Would you have had to get paid cover for C even if B was there ?

This is irrelevant, employees can take holiday for any reason they choose, it shouldn’t have an impact on whether they’re allowed the time of

as a separate point if you wanted to grant compassionate leave / similar for employee B then that’s up to you

C arranged her holiday in good faith and booked the leave with her manager.

B should never have authorised the leave, and has also ignored proper process in doing so (should have been logged on your system; even if C had not done this, B should have reminded her that was the correct way to make requests).

B has also been less than honest to you when arranging her own trip which she must have known clashed with C's, unless she had forgotten (in which case all the more reason for insisting it all goes through the proper channels).

B is a senior manager should be on board with company protocol, but has ignored it. She also asked second - so she should be the one waiting to go away until C is back.

Unpaid leave does no one favours. I think you have to manage for the week - not ideal but probably likely to cause less friction. But I would def pull B up on the mess, and remind the whole team of their obligations to the company in the month of September, enforcing a blanket ban on future requests.

No, B would normally distribute the work between the other 2 in the team.

If B was off I could cover urgent things but with both off I'd need two temps to do the work of one with training time etc. Cover is about 130% of the salary cost with agency charges and VAT.

@ShirleyPhallus not in my company. Leave in September and April is not approved as a blanket rule unless there are exceptional circumstances. Holiday can only be authorised in line with business need not whenever someone wants it.

It's a mess but given that B is attending to an elderly relative - is it possible that this has been an oversight due to stress.

Can you not just suck it up this once.

As for 'issuing a warning' you need to follow proper disciplinary process for this. If there are performance problems mange them. Don't just lash out cause you are pissed off.

You can't force them to take unpaid leave, you will be opening yourself up to complaints and possible ET.
You can't leave someone without 2 weeks wages with no notice and potentially leave employees in hardship.
You can cancel leave for business need and it seems that might apply here but I think you need to carefully consider the impact of this on the team and actually whether it would be better to suck it up this time but address the performance issues.

C hasn’t really done anything wrong and shouldn’t be made to feel guilty, her manager approved leave, she booked a holiday. C should be reminded that in future she book all leave the correct way (as she should have been reminded by B on this occasion) and that leave shouldn’t be taken in Sept unless in exceptional circumstances .
B is entirely at fault here for not reminding C to book correctly or denying September holiday, and for taking time herself when she knew C was off/not letting you know that two staff members would be off.

Definitely B at fault here. C needs a reminder on following holiday booking procedure and that September holidays are generally unapproved except for extenuating circumstances like family crisis.

However B needs to go down a more formal route because they have :

1. not followed holiday procedure regarding September leave approval for C
2. not enforced holiday procedure for booking in terms of how C booked leave 3)misled you when requesting their own leave by not informing you of C's holiday. You know their characters but I'd be questioning if 1+2 were done for this reason, leaving it until 'too late' for the truth to come out.

Unpaid leave is a difficult one especially as you have to buy in cover. If anyone takes unpaid it is B as they have created the situation. By asking them to sort it out amongst themselves you've created a friction and resentment situation that will perpetuate amongst a manager and a staff member. I'd speak to HR about your options and where you stand on policy. As B is dealing with a family situation could it be transferred from AL to some kind of emergency leave? It doesn't solve the issue of them both being off but it helps with not setting a precedent and depending on how your company works may help with which pot of money comes from where and getting budget approval for cover. Make sure you think the trip classifies though, don't put your neck on the line by falsifying.

This is irrelevant, employees can take holiday for any reason they choose, it shouldn’t have an impact on whether they’re allowed the time of

But this isn't the case at all, it's common.

DH used to work in retail. December holidays are not allowed as standard - but for exceptional reasons, employees could discuss with their manager and were sometimes approved.

I work in finance and we have the same rule in April. It's completely understandable why businesses need to restrict leave during their busiest times.

It’s a week! I think you’re over reacting. Just make sure it doesn’t happen again.

I think you’re being really unreasonable, yes processes weren’t followed and you should definitely follow up on that but unpaid leave for either of them seems unfair. As B is going away to deal with issues with a sick relative wouldn’t it be possible to class as compassionate leave anyway? In which case if someone needed to be off suddenly and someone else was on holiday what would you do then?

I work in a really busy team and we deal with urgent unexpected work that can not be left due to the nature of the people we work with. For the last 2 weeks 2 team members have been off and another team member last week. The rest of our small team just picked up the slack, we had a chat with our boss and we worked things out to allow those members of staff to have the time they had booked off - it was stressful and yes we did work longer hours but we were approached in a nice manner by our boss who helped as much as she could to deal with the situation.

I think you’re being a bit dramatic - surely there is work that can wait - what would you do if 2 team members were off sick for a week with say Covid? Would you really get in temps and if so you would have to pay for them then whilst also paying sick?

I guess it all depends how much you value your employees.

For those saying to manage for a week- I can't! 3 people can't do the work of 5 - not do I expect my other 2 staff to beat the brunt of this (and wonder why they can't get a cheap deal on a holiday in September)

The whole purpose of the post was that I'd reflected on the unpaid leave situation and actually, in hindsight, think B should be the one in trouble so I think people are saying IABU about the Bit I've already acknowledged was unreasonable!

Not sure where people get the power trip from, but then some on here are weird. They seem to think doing nothing at work is fine too, any odd opinions I'd just ignore. 😂

For them both, I think it's quite obvious this has been done deliberately 'off the book' so you didn't know. Are you very sure b does have a sick parent and isn't just going on holiday too? Honestly some of the people I've worked with and know, they don't think twice about claiming sick parents/children, or sadly even claiming people are dead to get sympathy.

If you have to get cover in, then it's off the week for both and unpaid leave for it. In future, I'd recommend that you instate a second approval required for holidays for busy periods, so you have to approve them too. Any holidays booked sneakily then are rejected.

So do you get cover in whenever anyone takes a holiday? This is what I was getting at earlier, if you don’t cover for each other anyway then I don’t see how taking leave at the same time is a particular issue.

I also think you are totally ignoring the legal situation here. Two people have had their leave approved by their managers. In hindsight, you wish they hadn’t but they have, that is the reality. What legislation is it that makes you think you can either cancel their leave* or insist it is taken as unpaid leave. Again as I said earlier, I’d be going to HR if my manager behaved as you are.

*I know leave can be cancelled before anyone jumps onto that, but as this leave is coming up there is a god chance there is not sufficient lead time to do so and even if there is, it is pretty poor practice.

You need to performance manage B, on the basis that they allowed c to book holiday in a month where they shouldn't book holiday, via an email instead of the correct system and as a result have created this mess. But you can't just 'issue a warning' without going through the proper process

If anyone has to cancel it should be B as they have booked dates that someone was already off. Can't they move theirs? I know they need to go and sign some paperwork but does it have to be done that exact week?