AIBU - team holiday requests

[aibuboss]

This is playing on my mind and I know I will get honest replies here. NC because it's potentially outing...

I am A in this situation.

A is a senior manager with a small team- B is a manager too (£50k salary to demonstrate seniority) and directly line manages Employee C.

September is normally a busy time for us so holidays not really feasible unless an exceptional circumstance. The team is only 5 people, all quite different jobs, so only ever one on leave at a time unless it's August (quiet month).

I have recently approved a week off for B in September as they told me they needed to travel abroad to sort out some urgent paperwork for an elderly relative. Yesterday C declined a meeting request for the same week telling me that she was on holiday.

C hasn't booked through online holiday booking but did sent B an email that she's approved - it was before her request (via booking system). B didn't tell me this. I was fuming and told them yesterday they have told them they have until lunchtime today to sort it out between them and agree who is taking it else it's unpaid for both. Both have already booked overseas travel.

On reflection I actually think B should be the one to cancel or be unpaid- she should have known the holiday was overlapping from the email she'd approved. C has booked a holiday in good faith. This isn't the first performance issue I have with B and am now thinking about issuing a warning based on ineffective management- she shouldn't have approved C's leave anyway because of workloads (no exceptional circumstances- it's a 2 week all inclusive cheap deal!).

AIBU??

It doesn't sound as if there is an actual ban on September holidays currently, more like an implicit understanding which - as it turns out - may be less well understood by the rest of the team than OP thinks.

Also if only one person is allowed off at a time ( apart from August when school holidays make going away prohibitively expensive for those not on £50k plus salaries) if you then take September out of the equation, then it would be difficult for people to take all of their leave.

C is cheeky, don't get me wrong, and needs to be reminded of the rules, but they didn't cause the whole issue. I'm sure they were expecting to be turned down.

Also thinking about it - with a team that small - it would be easier to say only one off at a time apart from August, rather than that plus no holidays in September.

There are lots of jobs where time to take leave is limited to expensive times for holdiays, like teachers for example! It's a pain and maybe be a downside of a particular job, but all jobs have their pros and cons and it's the terms of the role. If it was a teacher coming on here to complain about how they weren't being allowed to take a 2 week holiday in term time they'd be told that's the job!

By not actually booking the holiday formally on the system, surely that's Also a way if not having holiday allowance reduced accordingly and effectively fraudulent.

Yes you'd probably ask your boss in advance before booking something to check it's okay to have that week but then you'd put in the formal request so your holiday is correct.

So it's a serious matter in most companies if people "forget" to get their holiday allowance adjusted. And then they claim "oh I was about to do it" etc etc.

That's true and I guess worth looking into further. It would be interesting to understand if the company policy means it was truly "approved" if it wasn't in the system.

Yeah but teachers have quite a few weeks where they are freely able to take holidays and know very far in advance when those weeks are, which is not the case here, because of the one member of staff only restriction.

100% agree.

By not actually booking the holiday formally on the system, surely that's Also a way if not having holiday allowance reduced accordingly and effectively fraudulent

Oh come on. It’s more likely that C wanted to know if she can have time off so checked if it’s ok first. She probably didn’t get round to adding it to the system. In my team, whenever someone wants a week off, we make sure it’s ok before actually booking the holiday. Nothing unusual about that. You check if it’s ok, and then you book. You get the approval before the formal system approval, if that makes sense.

yes but at what point does it go from "about to put on the holiday system HONESTLY" to fraud? surely everyone just claims they would be about to do that when challenged.

yes there is a brief period between getting a verbal yes fine to book that week and then formally requesting it - a few days for example. but at the point of you declining meetings as you are "ON HOLIDAY THAT WEEK" - then you do it officially.

sure we have all had situations of people "forgetting" to officially book holiday. And usually the same people each time.

You check if it’s ok, and then you book. You get the approval before the formal system approval, if that makes sense.

Agreed. But usually the guidance is that nothing should be booked & committed to (flights, hotels etc) until officially approved after business requirements are assessed. It is not unusual to have blanket bans during busy times (think accounts at year end).

So unless C is planning a week at home which could be moved out with September, C does not have formally approved holidays. Sounds like C is aware of the correct channels to use.

B is an idiot for bypassing the official channels. B & C are as bad as each other.

I’m not sure why people are skating the OP so much!

B was obviously completely wrong to ask for her leave having approved C’s - and presumably having noticed it wasn’t on the system.

C was wrong not to use the system but ultimately buck stops with B. She definitely shouldn’t have approved the formal request once she knew this was an issue - and C shouldn’t have gone in and made it at that stage either.

I agree unpaid leave doesn’t solve anything though. Can’t B do the paperwork in October instead?

B perhaps thought it was manageable to be off at the same time as C, as a manger, surely they have that discretion. Or perhaps they forgot or perhaps it was an oversight.

What is certainly isn’t is any cause for “fury” from the OP. It doesn’t require anything more than a reminder to book leave in the system and to ensure that cover needs are considered. It certainly isn’t anything that suggests that performance management, disciplinary processes and frankly OPs threat to hit people financially either through unpaid leave or forcing them to cancel booked holidays is appalling behaviour.

B is a piss taker, and I would be suspicious that B and C knew they both wanted the same time off and cooked this up between them.

However, your operating system just isn't sustainable. What is someone was off sick for a few weeks/months? You sound ridiculously understaffed if two people can't have a week off at the same time.

I second that. I’m glad you aren’t my boss. If they have accrued leave they can take it without having to go unpaid. Sounds like you are on a power trip. Fair enough there has been a bit of a breakdown but you sound very vindictive about it. I doubt they have any respect for you if this is the way you act. I’ve worked with some right dickheads in my time too..

Blanket bans on holidays are very common during busy times - think accounts at year end, no one gets holidays generally.

The ban is to make it fair for everyone so someone does not get holidays when someone else has been approved. Really is not that uncommon. Just that these two thought they could get around the system making it unfair for everyone.

Yes sometimes places have blanket bans on leave at certain times, but that is not relevant to this particular thread. There was no blanket ban.

"Yes sometimes places have blanket bans on leave at certain times, but that is not relevant to this particular thread. There was no blanket ban."

The op says no holiday allowed in September unless exceptional circumstances.

@tigger1001 it doesn't say holidays not allowed though, it says holidays not really feasible which is two different things.

You sound like a nightmare OP

And a jobsworth

I’d imagine both B and C will look for another job as soon as is practical

It's not really. Only holidays in exceptional circumstances would be normal wording. It's just splitting hairs to say otherwise.

It's the same where I am. My department wouldn't get holidays December/January as that's our busy time. However it would be considered if exceptional circumstances.