To think it’s reasonable to return the Elgin Marbles to Athens?

[Digita]

Learned I have to start a new thread rather than resurrect an existing one if I want to discuss this. Original zombie thread (learned new term!) FYI: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/776736-to-think-it-outrageous-that-Britain-refuses-to-give-back

Old thread still relevant imo because 13 years later and the Elgin (Parthenon) marbles have still not been returned to Athens. Still a topic that reoccurs in the news cycle. Most recent article was within last month.

Athens asked for marbles back nicely and waited patiently. Even through Brexit negotiations, apparently.

I think it’s reasonable to return the Parthenon marbles. Athens have asked for them and also shown they are capable of taking care of their own heritage too. Doesn’t seem fair to require Athenians to get flights to London if they want to see the Parthenon marbles that were dedicated to their city’s patron deity.

Even if the claims that Elgin ‘bought’ them from the occupying Ottomans are true, it could be counter-argued that the marbles are priceless and shouldn’t have had a material value on them. In fact, who decided the price? Doesn’t sound like the Greeks had a say at the time…

The problem is that it set a significant precedent for numerous artefacts in museums globally.

If the Marbles are returned, think of all other exhibits that the countries of origin could them claim as their right to have repatriated.

I'd also argue that their arrival in England is in fact part of their history, which should not be airbrushed.

The "grand tour" many aristocrats conducted in previous centuries involved the purchase of art/artefact that resides not only in museums but many stately homes.

Should all this be returned?

There is a big picture here that many people miss.

It's not just about this particular exhibit.

Remember the marbles were bought not stolen. We are not talking about repatriation of looted items here.

As for Greeks having to fly to London to see them then that's again true of many examples of art.

Should the Louvre hand over the Mona Lisa to Italy because it was painted by an Italian and Italians have to go to Paris to see it?

Should MOMA in New York hand back Dali's Persistence of Memory to Spain?

And so on....

Breadincaptivity I could not have said it better myself. So does the British Museum have to denude itself of most of its exhibits, the greatest and most accessible collection of international treasures in the world, and return them from whence they came? Would you be happy to see the Rosetta Stone returned to Egypt? What about all the Syrian/Mesopotamian materials that could so easily have been destroyed by ISIS had they remained in situ? Germany, the USA, France, among many others, remain the custodians of priceless historical treasures...what of them? Will they return them to their original owners? 20 years ago, I took a very excited 17 yr old DD to Athens to view the Vase Room, the repository of so many priceless artifacts-she was studying them in her Classical Studies course. It was closed. And had been for years. Those treasures had been destroyed in an earthquake, and were still, years later unavailable for the public to view. I assume they are now accessible. But the collection of vases in the British Museum remained intact and safe. Does Athens want them back too? Does anyone know, or care that part of the Elgin Marbles are in the little museum in Worksop, Notts? Will they have to give those back too? By all means, return the Benin Bronzes..they were indubitably stolen...but the Elgin Marles, which, without the purchase by Lord Elgin, would now be fertilising the fields of Greece?

It's all theft: return it.

More Woke nonsense

I agree OP.

Their time in England can be a part of their story, and their journey home is the right ending.

I think it would be a nice gesture to return them...why not?

It's a bit like the statues of slavers...they are part of history but the future is more important...look forward. Set new precidents.

In the future it will be more important than ever to create good relations with countries rather than hold on to old grievances.

Where artefacts have clearly been stolen then there's a good case for returning them - provided they will be safe and well cared for. When they have been bought - no. Many of the artefects in British (and other European) possession were rescued from desctruction from people who did not value "old junk" from ancient times. If you bought something at a boot sale that years later turned out to be valuable, what would you say if the original owner asked for it back? The narrative that it was ALL looting by colonial oppressors is simply not true.

Weren't they purchased?

Most artefacts in the western museums are stolen, looted from the colonised countries. Even if they are not returned, history should be told properly by citing how they came to be possessed by these countries. Not just assumed by the public that they were purchased lawfully giving a just price, or gifted!

Did the British buy Kohinoor in the boot sale ?

Hmm...I'm not sure.

The Elgin Marbles were stolen, undoubtedly, and the BM spout (still) the idea that Greece will not look after them properly (xenophobia with a smidge of colonial attitudes mixed in), as if they are a 3rd world country...but on the other hand they represent a long dead culture. If the BM returned everything to its rightful owners, would there be a BM?

I am in favour of returning items that still have live significance culturally. For instance, they hold pieces still religiously and culturally significant to tribes in Nigeria and Ghana. And the Rapa Nui islanders want their statue back, because they are not just statues, but ancestors. (BM claim that if Hoa Hakananai’a is returned he might get damaged. They were, in 2019, trying to mitigate their theft by saying they can help the Rapa Nui islanders preserve the ones on their land. Again, a cynical move treating people like idiots). www.theguardian.com/culture/2019/jun/04/easter-islanders-call-for-return-of-statue-from-british-museum

They should be returned

If we hold artifacts from a civilisation that is still around, we should return them. If the civilisation has ended we should keep them.

The ancient Greeks died out 2000 years ago. There are people living on the same land but their connection to the Elgin Marbles ends there.

I'd also argue that their arrival in England is in fact part of their history, which should not be airbrushed.

Who's asking for it to be 'airbrushed'?

Their time in the U.K. can be recounted as part of the fabulous museum in Athens where they belong and should be returned to.

Having visited it, it's nothing short of shameful that they aren't there, right beside the Parthenon.

Would you want the art looted by Nazis given back to its owners - the answer is usually yes, of course. That's the rightful thing to do. How are the artefacts in the western museums any different ? They should be returned. A lot of South Asian idols in the British museum belongs to the temples. They are still worshipped in those countries and that's where they belong.

Using that logic, all treasures and artefacts should be in the uk because we don't have earthquakes or civil unrest...
But we do.
And while it is geat to access such treasures, many that fill uk museums are plundered/stolen so should be returned. No doubr you'd be mighty pissed off if some foreigner came along and started digging up graves in the local cemetery and stealing any bits they found

Its an interesting debate. Although Elgin did take them, the Parthenon was being used as a gun powder storage facility and the Parthenon was in dilapidated. Some may have been taken out of the rubble as described but some may well have been taken using force to remove them.

Then Elgin sold them.

My view is that we have had several 'British' artifacts sold over the years and the response has been that they should stay in Britain, this is no different in that they should be in their country of origin.

Just give them back they obviously mean a lot to them and nothing to us

I think they should be returned. They were originally decorative friezes running around the inside of the Parthenon. They are telling a story but a part of that story is lost by being removed to London.

They are beautiful but they only relevance to British history or culture is that Elgin was able to purchase them, whereas they were an integral part of the Parthenon and Ancient Greek history and culture.

Elgin had permission from the Sultan of the Ottoman empire. Taking them was no mean feat - if the permission was not sincerely held then they would have noticed and it would have been easy to redact. He then sold them to the museum. Shame they didn't value the pieces at the time!

Elgin had permission from the Sultan of the Ottoman empire.

They didn't belong to him to grant that permission though.

Deals done with in much more corrupt times, against backdrops of war and conquest shouldn't be guiding our actions here. They quite clearly belong at the Parthenon site with the others.

History should be properly disseminated and all the artefacts should have a sign saying how they were obtained - that's the least museums can do. Rather than letting people assume that they were all gifted and purchased , some of them could have been obtained legally and justly but most are not !
Posters who say that this it is part of the British history that they belong here, then people also should know how they got it!

I saw them for the first time a couple of years ago. Before then I'd been of the view that we should keep them. I thought they were maybe about 5 metres long and, relatively speaking, it would be an expensive woke point scoring exercise.
And then I saw how massive they are. Absolutely bloody huge. It is absolutely shameful that we are hanging on to them. They need to be back in Greece. Apart from anything else, Greece should be making the tourism revenue off them, not us.
Which had me reflecting on other things we have in our museums which are treasures of other nations.
The Cast Courts at the V&A do an impressive job of displaying copies of things British explorers identified/championed.
We can do that. Make copies of stuff and send the originals home.

Even if done by a long term loan as a technicality, yes.