To think it’s reasonable to return the Elgin Marbles to Athens?

[Digita]

Learned I have to start a new thread rather than resurrect an existing one if I want to discuss this. Original zombie thread (learned new term!) FYI: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/776736-to-think-it-outrageous-that-Britain-refuses-to-give-back

Old thread still relevant imo because 13 years later and the Elgin (Parthenon) marbles have still not been returned to Athens. Still a topic that reoccurs in the news cycle. Most recent article was within last month.

Athens asked for marbles back nicely and waited patiently. Even through Brexit negotiations, apparently.

I think it’s reasonable to return the Parthenon marbles. Athens have asked for them and also shown they are capable of taking care of their own heritage too. Doesn’t seem fair to require Athenians to get flights to London if they want to see the Parthenon marbles that were dedicated to their city’s patron deity.

Even if the claims that Elgin ‘bought’ them from the occupying Ottomans are true, it could be counter-argued that the marbles are priceless and shouldn’t have had a material value on them. In fact, who decided the price? Doesn’t sound like the Greeks had a say at the time…

There's nothing more anti British than writing off people as anti British ...

People from all of the world, in their millions, can access the Elgin marbles at the British Museum, for free.

They can access the acropolis museum also, where they can be seen at the original site with the other marbles. That's a much better experience than half of the marbles in another country.

This argument that if we give one thing back 'we have to give it all back' is so insidious.

There are a huge number of artefacts in British museums that are incredibly important and sacred to other peoples, and are not even being displayed. For example the Pokomo Drum: www.msingiafrikamagazine.com/2020/05/the-ngadji-the-pokomo-sacred-drum/

It is sitting in a closet. Its original community is begging for it to be returned. But of course the Museum will not, because it would set a precedent for more famous objects like the marbles and the Rosetta Stone (which Egypt does want back as well).

I can't even begin to imagine how many millions of artefacts the British Museum, and museums all over London, have that are from other countries and cultures and times where those collections have been split across multiple locations and countries to give as many people as possible the opportunity to see and appreciate them

I don’t think it’s fair to label Sathnam Sanghera “anti-British”. Why is it anti-British to talk about British Empire history?

For one, he’s British himself.

He just points out problems in Britain due to a reluctance to talk about the Empire. In fairness, he has a point.

I don’t remember being taught about the Empire at school in any deep or meaningful way. Why is that?

For one, he’s British himself

It makes it even worse

Please can people at least stop referring to the marbles as having been bought, they were NEVER bought, whether from Greece or the Ottoman rulers, the amount Elgin spent was on removing them/shipping/bribes, he didn't allege to have bought them from anyone, his claim was that he was allowed to take any bits of stone he fancied.

Yes, the government did then pay Elgin for them but he didn't own them in the first place to be selling them.

Exactly and even if he did he bought them "fair and square" from the Turkish ottoman empire who was occupying Greece - if someone broke into your house while you were away and sold all your possessions, would you come home and say "oh well fair enough they bought them from the person who was in the house at the time."

I seriously can't believe people keep making this argument

It's not free to travel to London from all over the world. For many nationalities you also need a visa, which is not always possible to get.

Why should people have to spend hundreds or thousands of pounds to see important works that their own ancestors created?

Imagine if all the most important cultural artefacts in British history were scattered all over the world and you had to undertake a world tour to see them.

I can't even begin to imagine how many millions of artefacts the British Museum, and museums all over London, have that are from other countries and cultures and times where those collections have been split across multiple locations and countries to give as many people as possible the opportunity to see and appreciate them

If there are historical and cultural reasons that they are better placed in other countries and they are better presented there (as is the case with the EM) then the BM should not be holding on to them.

The idea of a one stop shop culture theme park is somewhat distasteful anyway. Which is what you get to if you take your thinking to it's logical conclusion.

The marbles are not being presented at the BM to best advantage. They should be with the other marbles and artefacts from the Parthenon, at the original site, which has been carefully designed for their exposure.

Exactly and even if he did he bought them "fair and square" from the Turkish ottoman empire who was occupying Greece - if someone broke into your house while you were away and sold all your possessions, would you come home and say "oh well fair enough they bought them from the person who was in the house at the time."

Which is all very well on paper. However eventually - no matter how much you wish - you have to face reality. What is the difference between the land nicked from Greece by the Ottomans, and the land nicked from the Saxons by the Normans ?

And how about the land nicked from the indigenous peoples of the Americas ?

The fact they are referred to as the Elgin marbles, associating them with the British rather than referring to them by their origin or artist, shows a level of disdain for them.

Why not tackle each issue one by one (or as many as can be managed at once), no-one's saying we have to solve every single issue of cultural theft/appropriation overnight, we start with the marbles and onto the next issue. The complication with land is often other people who were not directly involved with taking it are now living on it/using it. No-one has made a home in the marbles though so that's a little bit of a facetious comparison.

Imagine if all the most important cultural artefacts in British history were scattered all over the world and you had to undertake a world tour to see them.

One way to avoid that is not to have a culture at all. (Which is why we have Nadine Dorries in charge of it. I think British Culture can be left safely unguarded while she's in charge)

On a serious note, without the marvel of writing, we have stuff all idea what was important to British Culture before the Romans. And that's assuming it was a distinct monoculture anyway.

The Stone of Scone got returned, eventually ....

No-one has made a home in the marbles though so that's a little bit of a facetious comparison.

I'm here all week. 😀

@Digita
I am well aware of the history of Kohinoor, that's was meant to be a sarcastic question to the pp.

But where are the ‘original owners’. Sorry I can’t look this up in detail ( in bed with the big C) but off the top of my head

made and installed in Athens by the society state of Athens ( who were incidentally big on invasion and colonialism themselves.)

conquered and occupied by Sparta
conquered and occupied by Macedon
Conquered and occupied by the Roman Republic, which then became the Roman Empire.
Inherited by the Byzantine Empire, but with quite a lot of disputes and temporary loss of power.
conquered and occupied by the Ottoman Empire, who were in possession at the time of sale. The ottomans made a practice of removing many children form their subject states, and replacing them with ‘Turks’.

All these invasions and conquests have resulted in an enormous mixing of blood and culture. The current Greek state was established in 1821, with a lot of assistance from other European states. Of course, it has also been under foreign domination since independence.
So who are the rightful owners? The people who happen to be living there at the moment? If Russia , for example, invaded and conquered Greece, would they still have the ‘right’ to the Greeks one time property?

It is not anti British if he points out what has been done in the name of empire.

It is this narrative which has been fed for generations of how brilliant empire was to others in the world. It was not and when someone points that out does not make them anti British.

There's no "even if" about it - Lord Elgin brought the marbles in 1811 after a negotiation with the Ottoman authorities; he didn't steal them, he took them for preservation. Plus giving them back would open the floodgates to demands of other things Britain's taken in the past.

Just imagine what would've been the fate of all those remarkable antiquities of Mesopotamia / Iraq had Britain not taken and preserved them and had the ISIS criminals got their repulsive mits on them?

But where are the ‘original owners’.

im not even sure that's relevant, it's more about returning them to the original site, which has been beautifully restored, so they can be appreciated in their original location, with the other marbles

“Returning the marbles?”

By definition that suggests they’re not British.

Why do you think the UK will become a “barren land”? Are you saying that you think that was what the land was before artefacts and things were imported from other places?

Britain has a lot to offer without taking from other places.

“The problem with migration is that, for some reason, it more often than not results in vindictive, resented individuals with zero attachment, respect, gratitude and wilingess to integrate with the nation that has allowed them to come in.”

Sathnam has a chapter called, “We are here because you were there”.

Understanding the British Empire and also World War history would help you understand how post-war migration happened to help build up the nation.

Are you aware that people from British colonies like India fought for Britain in the World Wars? Lest we forget and all that.

Sathnam on Twitter: “Immigration. Has. Made. Britain. Richer. Economically. And culturally. And morally. One day a politician will come along and speak this basic fucking truth.”

Plus giving them back would open the floodgates to demands of other things Britain's taken in the past

Woke bliss

Some of these responses are depressing. “Why do we want them anyway?” “We only want them to display our power.” “We have our own heritage to display.” “Nobody cares if it’s an original or a reproduction”

The ideal end-point would be for anything not fairly purchased or received as a gift from a legitimate owner to be returned, but also for far more long-term loans and exchanges between countries. In all directions. Some objects are ideal candidates for copies, but nobody wants to visit a whole museum of facsimiles - there is power in the genuine article, which is of course why this is such an emotive topic. And the cultural sterility of everything British in Britain, everything Indian in India and so on that some posters seem ok with isn’t a positive outcome at all.

Sathnam has a chapter called, “We are here because you were there”.

Why do you keep quoting this person? Are you his disciple or something? He's entitled to an opinion, but I really don't care about what he has to say

Are you aware that people from British colonies like India fought for Britain in the World Wars?

Maybe you should learn something from their loyalty to Britain. Certainly very differnt from the attitude of disdain for this country and harmful wokery displayed by some today.