to think it outrageous that Britain refuses to give back the Elgin Marbles

[itwasntme]

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/arts_and_culture/8110010.stm

So Greece has built a museum that it hopes will safely house the Elgin Marbles, and the British Museum still refuses to hand them back.

The marbles are such an important part of Greece's history, they have no place in the British Museum. They were stolen by Lord Elgin, not saved.

I really think that there should be more pressure to give them back. This is the sort of thing that makes me embarrassed to be British.

Sorry I'm missing something.

What do starving people or Waitrose have to do with the Elgin Marbles?

No I think it's right to be passionate about heritage. I think where we have come from shapes where we go in the future. And who we are now. I care about that. And occasionally I shop in Asda.

I can't remember the argument though about the rest of the BM collection. What would happen to that if we had to start returning everything to its original home?

I don't know the history, were they stolen?

Anyway, is it right that one should only be able to appreciate the history first hand by getting on a plane and going to Greece?

Also, to be fair many items have been preserved in a way that simply would not have happened had items remained in their country of origin...

I agree wtih you OP, ok, so there are people dying, aren't there always, but a British Museum should hand back something that belongs to Greece. That's obvious.

Have you been to the British Museum?

If you were in the habit of giving back things BM has accumulated from foreign lands, it would be empty. Really.

(Which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.)

I can't think of any other countries that have been so vocal in asking for their artifacts back.

The BM always said that the Marbles would be damaged by the pollution in Athens. Other countries have recently returned other stolen parts of the Parthenon to Greece.

Britain should do the right thing and follow suit.

itwasntme, you raised the issue of pollution but then haven't addressed it? What do you think about that?

I'm not sure that 'following suit' is good justification.

Anyway, is it right that one should only be able to appreciate the history first hand by getting on a plane and going to Greece?

No, one should get on a plane and come to Britain to see Greek history first hand.

The Trustees of the British Museum warmly welcome the opening of the New Acropolis Museum which will allow the Parthenon sculptures that are in Athens to be appreciated against the backdrop of ancient Greek and Athenian history. The new museum, however, does not alter the Trustees? view that the sculptures are part of everyone?s shared heritage and transcend cultural boundaries. The Trustees remain convinced that the current division allows different and complementary stories to be told about the surviving sculptures, highlighting their significance for world culture and affirming the universal legacy of Ancient Greece

Statement from the BM website. Just out of interest.

I'm not convinced that telling "different and complementary stories" should override the importance of place and telling those stories in their original place. Lots of museums value that more these days.

The argument for keeping them here is certainly not looking very robust any more. I expect they will be returned. Or we might end up going to war with Greece.

Hobbgoblin, I think the point about the pollution is that with this new building, Athens have resolved any conservation issues. We don't have that excuse any more which is why we should follow suit.

Yeah, but the Parthenon doesn't have disabled access does it?

The pollution has been addressed, they have built a museum where they hope to house the marbles eventually.

Maggie, why are you talking about people dying? Are we not allowed to care about anhything else?

Re Maggie, I think that comment was to apostrophe and in agreement with you itwasntme.

Whoops, thanks, I see that now.

Ok, re. pollution. I am seriously ignorant on this topic which is why I joined the thread. I've been lucky enough to visit several ancient architectural sites including the Acropolis so am interested in the debate.

I'm no expert either, really.

And tbh, I've never been to the BM. Really don't fancy it. I just imagine lots of bits of pottery in glass cases. Would much rather see stuff in its original context.

The British Museum is fantastic, it's really not just pottery. The Egyptian rooms are amazing, with all the mummies, etc.

But the Greeks have been asking for the marbles to be returned for years. They are such an important part of their heritage.

Imagine the uproar if they had part of Stonehenge in one of their museums!

I love the British Museaum. And I think they should send the marbles back, on permanenent loan if they are worried about ownership. They are completely out of context in a cellar in London. The trustees don't have a leg to stand on.

Yanbu. They should go back. They are too important to be in this country.

If they were playing for keepsies then Elgin should get to keep them.

I think quite a lot of damage was done by 19th-century pollution in London anyway and the BM's attempts to restore them. No idea if that's more or less than would have been in Athens.

OTOH it's possible they wouldn't have survived the Greek war of independence so perhaps just as well they were in Britain.

I don't actually have an opinion about whether they should be returned or not (I seem to remember there's some sort of charter that prohibits it from the BM's point of view?) I think the prevailing opinion in Britain is that they should be returned, though.

Here is something not many people know about the Elgin Marbles and how they were nearly lost forever.

My Grandad was on a battleship called the HMS Rodney in WWII. The Rodney was on its way to Canada across the Atlantic and was ordered to redirect to hunt down and sink the Bizmarck along with the King George V and other smaller ships.

The HMS Rodney was an old ship and was sent in to fire at very close range because unusually its main guns were almost all forward facing. In the end the recoil of the Rodneys own guns firing flat trajectory over its bows buckled the deck and it nearly sank under the weight of its own gunfire.

The Bizmarck sank first and HMS Rodney limped home and then went for repairs to Boston, USA.

I have read that the Elgin Marbles were stacked in wooden crates in the hold of HMS Rodney throughout the battle as they were being sent to the Canada/USA for safe keeping. If the Rodney had sunk my Grandad would probably have died and the Elgin marbles lost forever.