To think it’s reasonable to return the Elgin Marbles to Athens?

[Digita]

Learned I have to start a new thread rather than resurrect an existing one if I want to discuss this. Original zombie thread (learned new term!) FYI: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/776736-to-think-it-outrageous-that-Britain-refuses-to-give-back

Old thread still relevant imo because 13 years later and the Elgin (Parthenon) marbles have still not been returned to Athens. Still a topic that reoccurs in the news cycle. Most recent article was within last month.

Athens asked for marbles back nicely and waited patiently. Even through Brexit negotiations, apparently.

I think it’s reasonable to return the Parthenon marbles. Athens have asked for them and also shown they are capable of taking care of their own heritage too. Doesn’t seem fair to require Athenians to get flights to London if they want to see the Parthenon marbles that were dedicated to their city’s patron deity.

Even if the claims that Elgin ‘bought’ them from the occupying Ottomans are true, it could be counter-argued that the marbles are priceless and shouldn’t have had a material value on them. In fact, who decided the price? Doesn’t sound like the Greeks had a say at the time…

How far back do we go when returning land to colonisers as suggested above? Serious question.

Why do we need to go far back? Serious question. Just give the land to the people who live there. Give the items to the people who live where they were created.

I don't really understand all this chat about Romans and Anglo Saxons and Celts etc. My neighbours come from Pakistan, but since they live and work here now, the medieval castle 1/2 mile up the road on public land is owned just as much by them as it is me. If it was privately owned, it would have been owned because at some point in history, someone took something from the people of that land (including the land!) and decided they'd now be owners. Why do we need to go far back to return things to the people who live there?

I can't see any legitimate reason for Britain to return them. Throughout history stronger groups have always exploited weaker ones.

So that makes it ok? What a terrible attitude!

We keep them to demonstrate our superiority complex. We need to get over that because we look increasingly ridiculous to the rest of the world.

Where's all the comments come from that Elgin bought them fair and square? Even he didn't argue that, he argued that he had permission (which even the BM can't find record of even though other similar records were kept meticulously) to remove them and yes he paid bribes and transport fees but that's not the same as buying them.

If our government decided, amid widespread protest, to ignore someone shipping part of Stonehenge overseas when they were only meant to be taking casts of it, would some of you be happy with that then because it's from a culture that's now gone so we should have no rights to it anymore?

Not all artefacts in museums are looted. Some have been paid for or donated.

Now whether or not the seller/donor had the rights to do so is another matter. But it's definitely a nuance to be considered.

If our government decided, amid widespread protest, to ignore someone shipping part of Stonehenge overseas when they were only meant to be taking casts of it, would some of you be happy with that then because it's from a culture that's now gone so we should have no rights to it anymore?

But what if our government sold off Stonehenge and it got shipped abroad ? And then a few decades later a(nother) government started agitating that it should be returned ?

Quite a lot of classical content in British museums was actually bought from a Catholic society that was glad to see the back of it, being pre-Christian and all that.

Why doesn't the BM create a digital representation of the marbles, then send the originals back to Greece on a long term loan?

The British museum could then have space for some British history.... (including the effects of Colonialism).

@SerendipityJane , I'm doubt much 19th Century trade of artifacts was fair even by 20th century standards,

Why do we need to go far back? Serious question. Just give the land to the people who live there.

Ok if we are not going far back. So Russia invading Ukraine. If they win then they live there, so it's theirs? That goes for all invasions I take it? Like ISIS when they set up their Caliphate? They took that land, they lived there, they came from all over the world to do so. Just let them keep it? Doesn't work really does it.

It's about moving forward in an ethical manner for people today not spending too much time on stuff that happened way before living people

So Russia in Ukraine is directly affecting people alive today and is clearly not what the Ukrainian people or it's government want

Worrying about the guy who throw my ancestors out of them home as part of the Scottish clearances - it was wrong but no I don't think trying to ge compensation would be fair either

I think it's time to start the process of returning the Parthenon sculptures. They should be shown where they began, in the place and in context. Perhaps we could retain casts and perhaps some sort of exhibition surrounding them telling the story (and the images depicted) could be developed with new technology. At the moment they are just displayed in that room and it's quite dusty and flat. I get the impression more people (& mainly tourists because the standing collections are free) visit because they have heard of the furore more than anything else. I pop in to see them every now and again but actually along with the remaining standing collections in the museum, the show spaces are showing the lack of funding. The curated exhibitions really bring pieces to life and I think we'd learn more about the sculptures and their era if they actually showed replicas in a more interesting way.

But my hypothetical was exactly what is agreed to have happened with the marbles, only the question of the permission to remove is the debated part. It wasn't sold as in your example and a new government didn't 'start agitating' decades later, the request to have them back has been going on for ages!

This thread reminded me of this bit of stand up on the topic.

@BreadInCaptivity ”Remember the marbles were bought not stolen. We are not talking about repatriation of looted items here.
**
As for Greeks having to fly to London to see them then that's again true of many examples of art.
**
Should the Louvre hand over the Mona Lisa to Italy because it was painted by an Italian and Italians have to go to Paris to see it?
**
Should MOMA in New York hand back Dali's Persistence of Memory to Spain?
**
And so on....”

I’d argue the Elgin Parthenon marbles are in a completely different league to paintings by artists. The marbles were part of a place, not as moveable as paintings.

There’s a spiritual dimension to the marbles - they were dedicated to the city’s patron deity. Not sure if we even know who the artists were, but we do know who the marbles were dedicated too. But disrespectful of the city’s spiritual history to not return them when requested.

The paintings you described sounded like they were commissioned to be sold. The marbles on the other hand were part of an ancient religion and dedication to a deity. Different leagues.

I’d argue the Parthenon marbles are in a similar league to excavating tombs that give rise to ideas about the curse of Tutankhamen etc. Again, disrespectful and maybe even a bit arrogant too.

”We don’t believe there’s anything spiritual in what these other ancient cultures believe. So we’re taking them for our museums.”

Sathnam Sanghera writes about it really well in his book ‘Empireland’.

I wouldn't disagree. But still not "all" ...

@BreadInCaptivity ”Remember the marbles were bought not stolen.”

Not bought from the Athenians though. And how do you put a price on priceless marbles dedicated to a deity?

I’d still argue hubris on this one.

There’s a spiritual dimension to the marbles - they were dedicated to the city’s patron deity.

Which means stuff all to Christians, part who have rejected all other Gods. Unless my bumper book of Christianity (aka "the Bible") needs updating ?

Worth bearing in mind that it this view of religion that has lead to the destruction of pre-Islamic art in the middle East. I'd call it barbarism myself.

@fUNNYfACE36 ”More Woke nonsense”

Funny how you label a classic lawfulness and fairness issue “Woke”. Just because “Woke” has negative connotations.

Woke also has the connotations with being “awake”. I’d argue it’s sometimes better than be asleep. Maybe the counter word to Woke ought to be ‘Sleep’. And people should have a bit of both, as in real living. I digress.

This.

And the Normans are the (exceedingly violent) colonises of the Anglo Saxons.

Point ?

I've been saying for a while that a very long (indefinite) loan is the best solution. It prevents the 'precedent leading to demand for all treasures to be returned' notion and saves face for the BM.

This too.

”I don't see what's fair and square about that and you must have really dodgy morals to think it is. Buying from thieves is still considered illegal, don't you know that?!”

Athens is easily accessible with many flights from all over the world to anyone wanting to see the Parthenon marbles and there is a fabulous museum to display them. The argument that many people will be able to see them only if they are in London is not valid in my opinion. Many people can also see them in the museum in Athens and in addition enjoy a visit to the stunning acropolis and the Parthenon where these artefacts originated from. The marbles should be returned where they belong.

Translation: I'm massively ignorant but I'm sure of whose side I'm on.

Dunning Kruger in action